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Help needed creating my dad's M32 TRV
scottj
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Posted: Friday, January 19, 2018 - 09:43 PM UTC
My dad's unit used M32 TRVs along with the M25 Dragon Wagon. I want to build a 1/35 scale version of "Millie" from his unit but I don't speak much Sherman and am a bit lost. Please forgive and correct me if I say something that is gibberish. I'm a ship guy and haven't built an armor model in at least 35 years.

I have the Italeri M32 kit and know I won't use the hull from it at all. Dad said their M32's were based on M4A3E8 but the kits I see are not the right hull.

From the photos I have it looks like I need to come up with an M32A1B3. I believe it is an early Ford M4A3 hull with the small hatches and the 57 degree slope. The unit has HVSS and a one piece transmission cover. Here is the one photo I have been able to upload. I have other views of a similar M32 but cannot upload them right now.



If my research is right, what kit(s) do I need to bash to get something close? I don't care about turret/gun configuration so will focus on the hull. Are there any M4A3 kits with the 57 degree nose? That coupled with HVSS would be great but not a show stopper.

Thank you so much for your help!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, January 19, 2018 - 10:45 PM UTC
First of all, when it says A1 in the designation for an M32 it means the HVSS suspension.

An M32A1B3 created from bits and pieces of other models.

An M32B3 is "A M32 based on the M4A3. 344 were produced by Lima Locomotive and Pressed Steel Car." from Wikipedia.
Note that the hull for M4A3 wnt through some changes.
Compare the differences around the hatches, your photo shows extra armour in front of the hatches and the hatches are oriented front-rear. The later M4A3 hulls had larger hatches, a different slope to the glacis and the hatches were angled inwards so they didn't stick out over the top edge of the glacis.

Top view of a model showing the later hull:


Side view of an M32B3 showing the bulges in the front glacis for the hatches:

another one:


This shows a top view of an M4A4 (slightly longer hull) so do not look at the section behind the turret. The glacis might be slightly different but the purpose is to show the drivers/co-drivers hatches:


Some more reading and images here:
http://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/Ford/fordm4a3shermantanks.htm

/ Robin
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, January 19, 2018 - 11:59 PM UTC
The vehicle in the picture doesn't have HVSS. Those are regular T48 tracks without even with the E9 extension conversion. If an M4A3 you could use an M4 hull with an M4A3 deck (the Dragon or even Tamiya M4 kit would work with a Tiger Models M4A3 deck tweaked to early configuration though the earlier decks were tweaked with later fittings)

Most M4 56 degree hulls can be made into M4A3 56 degree hulls with some putty and new engine decks and exhausts. The Tamiya M4 IIRC is closer to a M4A3 hull than M4 and comes with the M4A3 exhaust. The ancient MB M4/M4A3 conversion had the M4A3 engine deck.

But with today's after market there are lots of alternatives with some putty and filing.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 12:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My dad's unit used M32 TRVs along with the M25 Dragon Wagon. I want to build a 1/35 scale version of "Millie" from his unit but I don't speak much Sherman and am a bit lost. Please forgive and correct me if I say something that is gibberish. I'm a ship guy and haven't built an armor model in at least 35 years.

I have the Italeri M32 kit and know I won't use the hull from it at all. Dad said their M32's were based on M4A3E8 but the kits I see are not the right hull.

From the photos I have it looks like I need to come up with an M32A1B3. I believe it is an early Ford M4A3 hull with the small hatches and the 57 degree slope. The unit has HVSS and a one piece transmission cover. Here is the one photo I have been able to upload. I have other views of a similar M32 but cannot upload them right now.



If my research is right, what kit(s) do I need to bash to get something close? I don't care about turret/gun configuration so will focus on the hull. Are there any M4A3 kits with the 57 degree nose? That coupled with HVSS would be great but not a show stopper.

Thank you so much for your help!

Italeri's M32B1 kit is forty years old, and the turret has dimensional errors. The Asuka (Tasca) M32B1 kit is more accurate. The shortest route to an M32A1B3 is to use the Tamiya M4 kit, which has the correct glacis for an M4A3, and use the new Tamiya M4A3E8 kit for the engine deck, rear hull parts and suspension. If your vehicle has the round, one-piece, mid-production transmission cover, you may have to source this from another kit, or use a resin item.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 03:16 AM UTC
Tamiya 35190:




The transmission cover (the part of the hull between the drive sprockets,rounded,three pieces bolted together on the Tamiya kit and cast in one piece, slightly pointed on your photo) needs to come from another kit.
As Stephen writes: Your dads ride had the VVSS suspension so you shall not use any HVSS parts.
/ Robin
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 03:24 AM UTC
Having checked my photo references, it appears that the M32A1B3 series used the new M4A3E8 hulls rather than dry stowage M4A3 hulls from 1943. The vehicle I described earlier would qualify as one, but it's not certain any M32A1B3 were assembled in that configuration. If the photo you posted is of your dad's vehicle, it is a standard M32B3, and you just need to mate the Tamiya M4A3 engine deck and rear hull with the Tamiya M4 and the M32 parts. Tamiya supplies a late suspension with upswept return roller arms, so a mid-production VVSS suspension would have to be sourced from another kit (Dragon, Academy, Asuka).
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 03:43 AM UTC
Ah yes, the return rollers.
Scott, you are going to learn more about Shermans than you ever thought you wanted to

This page has visual explanation of the return roller mystery:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/suspension/vvss_suspension.html
and a lot of other information ...

Sourcing parts:
Asuka (the old name was Tasca) have a different business idea, sprues produced for their Sherman kits are also sold separately so you can mix&match your very own Sherman:
http://tasca-shop.ocnk.net/
http://tasca-shop.ocnk.net/product-list/6?page=1
The product numbers for the sprues is made up by the kit number, for instance 35017 and a letter, 35017-H is most of the upper hull and the large parts of the turret. To figure out which sprue you should use you need to check what the full kit was.

They also sell three sets of M4 suspensions: initial, early and late and you would be interested in the early, 35-007.
http://tasca-shop.ocnk.net/product-list/15
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 03:57 AM UTC
Just noticed something.
The photo of your dads M32 is a double exposure. Check the midget in uniform almost in front of the left track (to the right in the picture).


This page has images of M4A3's built by Ford and the M32B3s's were built using M4A3's built by Ford.
http://usautoindustryworldwartwo.com/Ford/fordm4a3shermantanks.htm
/ Robin
scottj
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 05:15 AM UTC
This is exactly the sort of info I'm looking for!

Here is an additional photo but I think it is of a different M32. For one thing, the name isn't stenciled in the same place as the first photo I posted. This one clearly has the HVSS suspension which led me to believe dad's did, too. Would a unit have a mix post WWII?

scottj
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 05:22 AM UTC
One more uncropped of the extraction. They brought in a lot of weight to pull this tank out.

Note the second M32 in the upper right. I think that this is the same one, "Millie" from the first photo but I can't be certain. There is something stenciled at the very front of the left side, just where the name is in other photos.

This may be enough for one of you to confirm the suspension.

scottj
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 05:30 AM UTC
I think that guy who appears by the track is just a ways back. The M32 is loaded on the M25 so is pretty far off the ground. But if it isn't a double exposure there may well be some sort of reflection. Hard to tell if it is in the original or in my scan of it. Unfortunately the original is a far to far away for me to go check.
junglejim
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 05:55 AM UTC
I'd say they loaded it up on a trailer; it's obviously higher up then the guys standing right beside it!

Jim
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 07:10 AM UTC
The HVSS suspension came into use late in WW II so from a timing point it is possible that both types could have been in service. Maybe M32's didn't get retired out of active duty since they were a special asset. M4 tanks with HVSS fought in Korea so the M4 as such was still around.

Regarding the recovery operation: I would bet my two cents on the M32 in the background having VVSS suspension. It looks as if the extension "shelf" seen together with HVSS is not there. If you zoom in on the image you can see the shape of the track link and the polished part shining.
From the front you see the wider track, made up of two track pads side by side and the little shelf extending out from the upper hull. The HVSS looks beefier seen from the front.

Compare with the tracks on this tank:

/ Robin
ironhull
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Posted: Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 12:36 PM UTC
I think the first M32 is based on a pre January 1943 Ford M4A3 with padded lifting rings, casted transmission cover and horizontal return roller assembly. Note the cut-off on front hood armor for the 81mm mortar bipod. The HVSS M32 is based on a later small hatch M4A3 with standard welded lifting rings. Note on second picture the open engine hood probabily to avoid overheating on hard duty (M47 was a very heavy load for an M32). Both tanks have the early small cable turret guide.
Bye
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