Greetings all,
I am building Dragon's Late Production KT (6232) and trying to settle on a realistic paint scheme.
I will be building this as a "last" production KT with one piece tracks, rainguard on the sight, extended fuel vents, ribbed fenders, six extra track links on each turret side, camo D-loops etc. Hopefully that gives you a good time period for the vehicle I am going for.
I am NOT interested in building a specific vehicle. I like ambush scheme, however I was hoping to incorprate red oxide primer and grey gun barrel primer into the build. Would a hull finished in ambush camo and a red oxide turret be realistic? Plain dark yellow hull with red oxide turret? Any examples of KT's with barrels in raw grey primer? Is it realistic to have the turret and hull finished in different scheme?
Appreciate all advice and suggestions!
Hosted by Darren Baker
Last production King Tiger Paint Scheme
EZhotshot511
Joined: June 25, 2011
KitMaker: 26 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 05:50 AM UTC
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 07:22 AM UTC
I'm sure someone who is more well-read on the subject will correct me, but from what I know of the paint timeline I think a Late KT would have been produced while the directive was in effect for a base coat of dunkelgrun (dark green), with the hard edge dunkelgelb/rotbraun patterns over that.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 08:57 PM UTC
"Octopus" scheme??
Wierdy
Joined: January 26, 2010
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Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 09:33 PM UTC
You should know that late and final production KTs are not the same. Dragon 6232 is a very good kit, but it does not represent final features. To start with, DML do not make final pattern road wheels. They tried to imitate final production run vehicles by their 6209, but only in part.
Most Ardennes tanks were produced in September-November, which leads us to factory-painted Ambush camo on some of them, as seen on some of the most well-known photographs of the BoB period.
Octopus (as well as nazi cross on the front hull plate) is believed to be made after the war, at least there are no known in-action tanks with this kind of camo.
Those red oxide-based patterns are not confirmed be real period images as well. They are, IMHO, inspired by Spanish modelling school, WoT and what-if concepts. They were used in Panther production on the very last vehicles made, but not KT.
Dark grey gun barrels, however, can be seen on some tanks and SPGs. Guns were delivered to tank factories in that dark grey color where they painted them dark yellow after assembly was done. The non-dark yellow barrels were used to replace damaged or worn ones on in-service vehicles.
Most Ardennes tanks were produced in September-November, which leads us to factory-painted Ambush camo on some of them, as seen on some of the most well-known photographs of the BoB period.
Octopus (as well as nazi cross on the front hull plate) is believed to be made after the war, at least there are no known in-action tanks with this kind of camo.
Those red oxide-based patterns are not confirmed be real period images as well. They are, IMHO, inspired by Spanish modelling school, WoT and what-if concepts. They were used in Panther production on the very last vehicles made, but not KT.
Dark grey gun barrels, however, can be seen on some tanks and SPGs. Guns were delivered to tank factories in that dark grey color where they painted them dark yellow after assembly was done. The non-dark yellow barrels were used to replace damaged or worn ones on in-service vehicles.
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 10:42 PM UTC
As I understand it the ambush scheme is most likely for the last production run (the SS-503 examples in Berlin were this scheme, fanciful colour profiles notwithstanding). It is possible that the base colour was Olivgrun.
If you want visible primer, you could paint the lower hull and the strip covered by the side skirts in primer while the rest is in ambush. Roadwheels appear to have been supplied painted however and although some were camouflaged by units, this is less likely with factory schemes as it is bad practice to do so.
If you want visible primer, you could paint the lower hull and the strip covered by the side skirts in primer while the rest is in ambush. Roadwheels appear to have been supplied painted however and although some were camouflaged by units, this is less likely with factory schemes as it is bad practice to do so.
tatbaqui
News Writer
#040
Joined: May 06, 2007
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 03:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"Octopus" scheme??
That's what I thought as well.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 06:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text"Octopus" scheme??
That's what I thought as well.
No. There seems to be just that one example from the photographic evidence and I don't believe there was anything official concerning the implementation of such a scheme.
EZhotshot511
Joined: June 25, 2011
KitMaker: 26 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 06:41 AM UTC
Thank you gents, I appreciate your input.
I'll hold off on the octopus camo as it's likely post war and the one example to have had it was fitted with transport tracks which I do not have.
Robert, do you have sources or evidence of KT lower hulls existing in raw primer? I like the idea of this but I'd like to know of at least one example of this being done.
That being said, Paul, can you confirm with sources that KT's never left the factory in red oxide?
I may end up compromising with an overall ambush scheme and a dark grey primed barrel.
I'll hold off on the octopus camo as it's likely post war and the one example to have had it was fitted with transport tracks which I do not have.
Robert, do you have sources or evidence of KT lower hulls existing in raw primer? I like the idea of this but I'd like to know of at least one example of this being done.
That being said, Paul, can you confirm with sources that KT's never left the factory in red oxide?
I may end up compromising with an overall ambush scheme and a dark grey primed barrel.
Wierdy
Joined: January 26, 2010
KitMaker: 570 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 02:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
That being said, Paul, can you confirm with sources that KT's never left the factory in red oxide?
This may work as some sort of inspiration for you:
http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3112
tanknick22
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 03:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you gents, I appreciate your input.
I'll hold off on the octopus camo as it's likely post war and the one example to have had it was fitted with transport tracks which I do not have.
Robert, do you have sources or evidence of KT lower hulls existing in raw primer? I like the idea of this but I'd like to know of at least one example of this being done
That being said, Paul, can you confirm with sources that KT's never left the factory in red oxide?
I may end up compromising with an overall ambush scheme and a dark grey primed barrel.
there was no post war German camo schemes
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 06:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
there was no post war German camo schemes
I think what the OP meant was that the octopus-scheme was applied after the hostilities ended.
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 06:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I am NOT interested in building a specific vehicle.
I you don't aim for a specific vehicle anyway, why don't you give yourself some artistic license and do a scheme that maybe wasn't historically verified yet still plausible? After all, as Paul pointed out, there were such Panther examples; it wouldn't be a big stretch to represent a Königstiger similarly. Just a thought...
jrutman
Joined: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 09:48 PM UTC
The tanks never left the factory without being inspected by the Army acceptance teams and this continued right up till the end. The tanks then went to a centralized holding area for pick up by the units allocated the tanks. Sometimes right at the end of the war the troops went to the factory and picked up the tanks right from the source BUT...they were still always inspected before release to the troops.
This practice of showing tanks without paint or even without primer is a cool falicy "what-if" dreamed up by guys wanting to show something different.
Now,you can show miss matched hulls and turrets because these were switched by the field repair units quite frequently. Also many pics show replacement gun tubes still being in gray primer.
I believe the safest cammo theme to use would be 3 tone hard edge if you want to do the "last version".
HTH,
J
This practice of showing tanks without paint or even without primer is a cool falicy "what-if" dreamed up by guys wanting to show something different.
Now,you can show miss matched hulls and turrets because these were switched by the field repair units quite frequently. Also many pics show replacement gun tubes still being in gray primer.
I believe the safest cammo theme to use would be 3 tone hard edge if you want to do the "last version".
HTH,
J
EZhotshot511
Joined: June 25, 2011
KitMaker: 26 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 10:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I think what the OP meant was that the octopus-scheme was applied after the hostilities ended.
Correct, Thank you, this is what I meant. Also I like your idea of artistic license.
There is a colorplate by Mig Jimenez from his March 1945 KT kit (AMIG8500) that includes a typical late war scheme with a grey primed barrel and a red oxide mantlet:
This may be just the splash of color I am going for. Can anyone confirm that mantlets would be primed in red oxide and not the grey laquer used on barrels?
EZhotshot511
Joined: June 25, 2011
KitMaker: 26 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 10:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Now,you can show miss matched hulls and turrets because these were switched by the field repair units quite frequently. Also many pics show replacement gun tubes still being in gray primer.
I believe the safest cammo theme to use would be 3 tone hard edge if you want to do the "last version".
The idea of a mismatched hull and turret is intriguing and what I was originally considering except with a red oxide turret, but I like the idea of two different camos if its more realistic. Could you give an example of what you mean by 3 tone hard edge? Like ambush but without the speckles or is it literally hard edge straight lines?
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Monday, January 22, 2018 - 11:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Could you give an example of what you mean by 3 tone hard edge? Like ambush but without the speckles
No 'soft' transition between the colors but 'hard edge'. Take a look here: http://www.guildwargamers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=44855
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 12:28 AM UTC
The barrels alone would be painted in the protective gray lacquer as they came from a different factory.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 12:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Now,you can show miss matched hulls and turrets because these were switched by the field repair units quite frequently. Also many pics show replacement gun tubes still being in gray primer.
I believe the safest cammo theme to use would be 3 tone hard edge if you want to do the "last version".
The idea of a mismatched hull and turret is intriguing and what I was originally considering except with a red oxide turret, but I like the idea of two different camos if its more realistic. Could you give an example of what you mean by 3 tone hard edge? Like ambush but without the speckles or is it literally hard edge straight lines?
The pic above your post shows a hard edge camo on the bottom vehicle.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 05:34 AM UTC
Hard-edge is what you get when you mask then paint (Germans didn't mask their tanks before painting - they just used brush, or maybe rollers. The only exception is the ambush scheme with dots - like on late Hetzers, some Tiger ll's, and Panzerjager lV/70's which were factory mask-painted). Soft edge is when you use airbrush without masking.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 07:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hard-edge is what you get when you mask then paint (Germans didn't mask their tanks before painting - they just used brush, or maybe rollers. The only exception is the ambush scheme with dots - like on late Hetzers, some Tiger ll's, and Panzerjager lV/70's which were factory mask-painted). Soft edge is when you use airbrush without masking.
Except you can achieve a semblance of a hard edge with a brush or roller even without a mask, as opposed to the feathering/blending effect you often get using an air sprayer.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 08:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Except you can achieve a semblance of a hard edge with a brush or roller even without a mask, as opposed to the feathering/blending effect you often get using an air sprayer.
Yes, you can get a hard-edge without masking, and it's a faster paint job, too! And maybe even more authentic-looking compared to photo's, as, like I said, panzer crews didn't mask their tanks for nice neat paint jobs. But for a display model, or especially in competition, judges tend to prefer neatly-painted models over realistically-painted models.
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 10:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Germans didn't mask their tanks before painting - they just used brush, or maybe rollers.
Really? Painting a tank with brushes or a roller sounds like a terribly long-winded and inefficient process compared to using a spray gun. Given that field units were using spray guns, is there any evidence that factory schemes were applied using a less effective method when presumably the availability of power and compressor equipment would be higher there than in a Werkstatt Kp.?
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 10:49 PM UTC
I don't know what planet you're getting your info from, but I never claimed Germans applied factory-painted schemes in the field. I think you totally mis-read my post. Of course, they used spray guns in the field. Not disputing that. But half the time paint was applied using brushes, rags, mops, or brooms. Or sometimes paint was just slopped onto the tank. MY first post referred to painting SCALE models - not the real thing, as the OP was about painting a model.
jrutman
Joined: April 10, 2011
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 - 10:03 PM UTC
I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. The subject is the last version of the Tiger paint jobs. This would be the very late 1944,early 1945 version which was hard edged and also at this point,the tanks were all painted at the factory with a standardized cammo pattern so all tanks had the same paint job,maybe with very slight variations. The only difference would be the different factories but I am not sure the Tiger was the same as the Panther where that was concerned. The Panther had different patterns according to which factory built it. But my point is STANDARD cammo patterns,inspected by the Wehrmacht authorities before acceptance by the gov't.
J
J
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, January 25, 2018 - 12:51 AM UTC
KTs were produced at only one location, that being the Henschel factory in Kassel.
The hard edge could have been applied by first spraying on the camouflage pattern, then using a brush or roller along the edges where the colors meet to obtain the hard edge. Refer to p.141 in "Germany's Tiger Tanks - VK45.02 to Tiger II". Jentz writes, "Even when the camouflage pattern was sprayed on at the assembly plant, there was no systematic pattern." There are two photos of two different KTs, Fgst.Nr.280354 and 280356, which were completed at around the same time (20 Dec 44). Both have the hard edge camo; but, both patterns are completely different from each other. That would kick the "standard" pattern line of thought to the curb.
The hard edge could have been applied by first spraying on the camouflage pattern, then using a brush or roller along the edges where the colors meet to obtain the hard edge. Refer to p.141 in "Germany's Tiger Tanks - VK45.02 to Tiger II". Jentz writes, "Even when the camouflage pattern was sprayed on at the assembly plant, there was no systematic pattern." There are two photos of two different KTs, Fgst.Nr.280354 and 280356, which were completed at around the same time (20 Dec 44). Both have the hard edge camo; but, both patterns are completely different from each other. That would kick the "standard" pattern line of thought to the curb.
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