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Disturbing Twit from Dragon Models
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2018 - 07:21 PM UTC
So what happened to Dragon's engineering and creative talent from the early 2000's? Most of Dragon's releases from that period were still better than most of the current Trumpeter kits. Or did Dragon's talent quit and are now working for everyone else?
iowabrit
Joined: November 06, 2007
KitMaker: 585 posts
Armorama: 557 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2018 - 07:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Dragon needs to take time off to consolidate all than many sprues they have, and see what they can make from the newer, better stuff.
They should also consider releasing multi-variant kits, having all the parts necessary to build all the different kits they were once releasing. So, FOR EXAMPLE instead of ten different Pz III Ausf F kits, make a very few kits splitting production where simply adding the parts for particular variants. With the Pz III, they would have a box for the short-barrel and another box for the long-barrel variants. That way, Dragon only produces two different Pz III kits but anyone who wants to do a variant can just buy another of that kit. Probably been considered, but I really think they were flooding their own market a little with kits that were very little different from each other in many cases, other than markings and an extra sprue of Something Distinguishing.
Their instruction sheets are confusing enough as is, can you imagine what they would be like if the kit had 4-5 different variants possible?
tanknick22
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 1,100 posts
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2018 - 05:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextSo should I expect a screwed up kit when I get dragon's M48 AVLB if and when dragon releases it?
Yes, yes you should.
thats going to suck as I have to do a commision build for a friend
wowcool
Joined: September 26, 2015
KitMaker: 113 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2018 - 02:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
When was the last full new tool from Hasegawa in 1/72?
They released the new tool 1/72 F-35B only recently.
Quoted Text
...time to under cut the competition and rake in the real money with licensed toys.
Dragon didn't have any luck with licensed products either IMO. I believe they pulled the plug on their Marvel/DC Bobblehead and Action Hero Vignette line with no new stuff since 2015. Had Dragon any competent strategy, they could've capitalized on their (now defunct) 1/6 action figures with Hollywood licensing and become like Hot Toys. Their abortive adventure into Star Wars scale models derserves mention in the industry hall of shame.
Ironically, Girls und Panzer is now property of the Bandai Namco group, the folks who I suspect knocked Dragon off their Star Wars plans.
Dwaynewilly
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
Armorama: 18 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 03:53 PM UTC
I personally would like to see Dragon step outside of their comfort zone and explore new subject matter. They have ignored early WWII Allied vehicles and figure sets, and haven't gotten anywhere near WWI. While they have kitted some Japanese armor they have not supported the Pacific theatre with anywhere near the figure sets they have devoted to the European struggle. I believe opening up their catalog to explore something new would be supported by the modeling community. It would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.
Wierdy
Joined: January 26, 2010
KitMaker: 570 posts
Armorama: 553 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 04:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I personally would like to see Dragon step outside of their comfort zone and explore new subject matter.
That's exactly what they did with their Black Plague series. Few of us like what they came up with in the end.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 05:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI personally would like to see Dragon step outside of their comfort zone and explore new subject matter.
That's exactly what they did with their Black Plague series. Few of us like what they came up with in the end.
Black Death and Arab-Israeli Wars, a HAWK missile battery-- how much further from their comfort zone do they have to go? They have gone outside and gotten squashed for kits that range from laskluster to seriously flawed.
They thought they had World War II German all sewn up and now here come competitors, many of who do it just a touch better because they know the gaffes Dragon made.
The only recent effort that has been to their old high standards have been the Japanese pieces. Maybe Dragon should get serious about what they are already doing as opposed to doing new things and and really screwing the pooch.
wowcool
Joined: September 26, 2015
KitMaker: 113 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 07:38 PM UTC
Most complaints about Dragon's kits are related to accuracy, it's all down to research. The kits more than a decade old were well regarded because they were accurate enough, primary complaints being the vague or ugly instructions.
Sometimes, I wonder about Dragon's finances after several years of lackluster planning and a dearth of decent brand new products.
Sometimes, I wonder about Dragon's finances after several years of lackluster planning and a dearth of decent brand new products.
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 09:31 PM UTC
We talk about Dragons lack of accuracy of late compared to previous kits. I wonder why the change? Do we represent the majority of kit builders or are we actually a small representation that doesn't have much impact on sales? Did Dragon get a new president that said my way is best and don't waste time on accuracy? Someone out there knows why Dragon shifted. They could drop their what if vehicles and their models of few ever made tanks and focus on the common vehicles that most are looking for.
Their Black label kits selection was fine, it was their execution that was flawed that led to all the grumping. I would have loved an accurate M103 but I don't want to spend the time to fix it.
I never understood the idea behind the limited release kits. How would that have benifited Dragon? Why isn't Michael Whittmans Tiger 007 still being released? They could have done a Panzer aces series and would have done well.
Someone in the modeling world knows the why's and just hasn't shared yet.
Their Black label kits selection was fine, it was their execution that was flawed that led to all the grumping. I would have loved an accurate M103 but I don't want to spend the time to fix it.
I never understood the idea behind the limited release kits. How would that have benifited Dragon? Why isn't Michael Whittmans Tiger 007 still being released? They could have done a Panzer aces series and would have done well.
Someone in the modeling world knows the why's and just hasn't shared yet.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 09:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The only recent effort that has been to their old high standards have been the Japanese pieces.
Well, thank you. Could you explain what's wrong with the recent Tiger kits from Dragon?
David
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 10:08 PM UTC
Pretty easy to explain with the current models of human behavior in business. There is probably a dearth of quality engineers and designers with all the new Asian model companies coming on board. There's only so much talent and Dragon is stuck with the third stringers. It used to be by examining sprues and molding styles you could figure out signature styles of various teams. (Real CSI forensic stuff not recommended for anyone who cares abut breathing or other life activities.) So you could tell the X was actually doing the engineering for Y.
Then there are also project budgets and time restraints. Those stories I've heard from people in the business, some on this very board. Dragon is rushing projects and slashing budgets. Standards are allowed to drop so long as the bottom line is met.
At times it almost looks like Dragon project managers are being rotated with the company trying to find the right fit for people because the old hands all went off to another company. The mover and shaker behind the Dragon Shermans may have gotten a visa and a plane ticket to Japan. Another one might have gone to Hong Kong or Taiwan or even Korea because the job prospects were brighter. Or he may be putting all his effort into that commission for Trumpeter (or whatever) and just mailing it in for Dragon.
Big picture, macro industrial stuff that all comes down to Mr. Lee cutting corners on that rush M60 tank model. Thank you Mr. Rivet-counter but we had to have had it in yesterday--
Haven't you ever wondered why some markings for Dragon kits are all marked "Unidentified unit" when the unit is well known? The decals were done as an afterthought after all the budget was spent and no one bothered to tell the instructions guy what anything was. How many times are the paint schemes totally spurious? As if they looked at one picture, drew the insignia and numbers and threw it in the box, not even bothering to check if there any other pictures or units ids or anything simply because it was due last week and there's project director Fu breathing down my neck. Read Dilbert. So easy to extrapolate that into model companies.
Then there are also project budgets and time restraints. Those stories I've heard from people in the business, some on this very board. Dragon is rushing projects and slashing budgets. Standards are allowed to drop so long as the bottom line is met.
At times it almost looks like Dragon project managers are being rotated with the company trying to find the right fit for people because the old hands all went off to another company. The mover and shaker behind the Dragon Shermans may have gotten a visa and a plane ticket to Japan. Another one might have gone to Hong Kong or Taiwan or even Korea because the job prospects were brighter. Or he may be putting all his effort into that commission for Trumpeter (or whatever) and just mailing it in for Dragon.
Big picture, macro industrial stuff that all comes down to Mr. Lee cutting corners on that rush M60 tank model. Thank you Mr. Rivet-counter but we had to have had it in yesterday--
Haven't you ever wondered why some markings for Dragon kits are all marked "Unidentified unit" when the unit is well known? The decals were done as an afterthought after all the budget was spent and no one bothered to tell the instructions guy what anything was. How many times are the paint schemes totally spurious? As if they looked at one picture, drew the insignia and numbers and threw it in the box, not even bothering to check if there any other pictures or units ids or anything simply because it was due last week and there's project director Fu breathing down my neck. Read Dilbert. So easy to extrapolate that into model companies.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 31, 2018 - 10:16 PM UTC
No, Stephen I want you to explain EXACTLY what is wrong with the recent Tiger releases. Part numbers, technical errors etc.
Since I was the researcher on them, and you've told the world that MY standards are dropping, I'd like you to point out why you said that.
David
Since I was the researcher on them, and you've told the world that MY standards are dropping, I'd like you to point out why you said that.
David
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 03:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
No, Stephen I want you to explain EXACTLY what is wrong with the recent Tiger releases.
One could argue that DML *hasn't* had any recent Tiger releases. When was the last completely (or 90%) new Tiger kit issued by them?
KL
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 05:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
No, Stephen I want you to explain EXACTLY what is wrong with the recent Tiger releases. Part numbers, technical errors etc.
Since I was the researcher on them, and you've told the world that MY standards are dropping, I'd like you to point out why you said that.
David
No, THEIR standards are dropping because you're making your best effort and they're rushing off to cut molds because they're on a deadline.
You're one of few things that have gone RIGHT with Dragon lately. The projects you've been involved with are the freaking exceptions. If only they'd have bothered with other projects like they did with the Tigers.
It's so sad when ONE thing is truly superlative. That shows what can be done, but for so much else to be so lackluster almost could bring one to tears.
janders
Joined: July 10, 2016
KitMaker: 45 posts
Armorama: 45 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 05:45 AM UTC
Precisely. No one complains about the Dragon Tigers. I mean, sure some guys might whine they are complex, or expensive, or a single screw is wrong somewhere, but even those whiners can't really claim any other kit is better.
Juxtapose this with the Lance missile I got from Dragon, which was horribly laughably inaccurate, massively mis-sized parts, missing major components, etc etc. This was completely new-tool and not black label.
Or even one of the newer stug IV releases, which DOES have a lot of lovely sprues in it. It also has instructions filled with incorrect part numbers (7+, I stopped counting), instructions to drill / clip when you shouldn't (apparently cropped in from other variants), and zero explanation of any of the optional parts (guess I can do my own research). Oh and just two markings for "unknown unit".
Seriously, a Stug expert could spend 2 work days polishing the instructions and markings and the kit could have been EXCELLENT. Instead it seemed so-so!
Put out half the kits with twice the polish, and I think they'd do better. But I don't known their sales and balance sheet, so I could be wrong...
Juxtapose this with the Lance missile I got from Dragon, which was horribly laughably inaccurate, massively mis-sized parts, missing major components, etc etc. This was completely new-tool and not black label.
Or even one of the newer stug IV releases, which DOES have a lot of lovely sprues in it. It also has instructions filled with incorrect part numbers (7+, I stopped counting), instructions to drill / clip when you shouldn't (apparently cropped in from other variants), and zero explanation of any of the optional parts (guess I can do my own research). Oh and just two markings for "unknown unit".
Seriously, a Stug expert could spend 2 work days polishing the instructions and markings and the kit could have been EXCELLENT. Instead it seemed so-so!
Put out half the kits with twice the polish, and I think they'd do better. But I don't known their sales and balance sheet, so I could be wrong...
jbilbrey01
Joined: January 03, 2012
KitMaker: 24 posts
Armorama: 24 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 08:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Call me skeptical but these are pretty much all of their German lineup which has been their bread and butter. Maybe re-release them later in limited run batches for a premium price.
I wonder if DML's plan is to slowly reissue the more accurate [and more popular] kits over time. Besides Sprue Brothers getting a bunch of reissues last month, Toy Land Hobby Magazine published last week a list of Dragon models that are apparently being re-released. As far as I can tell, none of them were on the tweet. But, the list includes: 6322 - M3A1 Halftrack, 6360 - Panzer Ausf F2[G], 6560 - Panzer IV Ausf H, 6611 - Panzer IV Ausf H [Normandy], 6594 - Panzer IV Ausf G [Apr-May 1943 Production], & 6591 - Ersatz M10.
The part that I don't understand is that I assume it costs as much to cut the tooling for an inaccurate kit as an accurate kit. So, why doesn't DML do some research [or ask for help] when it comes to designing the tooling before the steel is cut? Subjects like the M60, M113, and M103 are not exactly top-secret. I expect a M113 with the missing fuel cap from early-1990's Italeri [as was missing on their M901], not a kit tooled almost 30 years later.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 03:39 PM UTC
Well, what happens when experts offer to work with Dragon?
David
David
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 03:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, what happens when experts offer to work with Dragon?
David
They get disappointed by the final result ???
/ Robin
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 03:57 PM UTC
Are you speaking from experience?
David
David
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 04:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Are you speaking from experience?
David
No, just guessing
I don't have the required level of knowledge,
maybe just possibly I could have assisted with some Swedish vehicles but there are many others with more/better knowledge than me.
/ Robin
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 05:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, what happens when experts offer to work with Dragon?
David
Why are you asking the question, surely of all people you should know. In what context are you asking the question anyway?
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 05:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Why are you asking the question, surely of all people you should know. In what context are you asking the question anyway?
The context: James Bilbrey said "why doesn't DML do some research [or ask for help]"
Why don't I know: I've been working with Dragon for 12 years. They trust me. The question is, when dealing with a new vehicle type, would they listen to experts they've never met before.
And no, I am not sitting in Hong Kong at their meetings, so I don't know.
David
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 05:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
They trust me. The question is, when dealing with a new vehicle type, would they listen to experts they've never met before.
David
You must have been someone "they've never met before" at some point, all those years ago. Where's the difference?
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 06:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You must have been someone "they've never met before" at some point, all those years ago. Where's the difference?
A firm can change its business practices over 12 years.
But, if you want to know, it was a gradual process in which I was trusted with more of the design process in each succeeding kit.
David
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 01, 2018 - 08:07 PM UTC
David, no one who knows you here would say Dragon hasn't seriously benifited from your efforts. The Tiger kits are still top of the line. It is that they haven't designed other kits to the Tiger design standards. Having seen what they can do, the expectation is that they continue them. It is like a building contractor makes an award winning home and you have him make you a home with the same expectations and yours ends up full of problems. It is the inconsistancy we dislike which leaves us questioning any new release. Will it be a winner or a turd. Dragon has made some great kits. I have several Tigers, Panthers, Mark 3 and 4's. They are all great kits of the highest standards. There are others however that are quite inaccurate and I choose other companies for those kits. Why the inconsistancies? Isn't the cost per sprue consistant? Why mess it up with inaccurate research. Once made a poorly researched/engineered mold will always be crap. Do it right and maintain your reputation.
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