Bronco T-142 does not fit M60 from AFV Club
European Union
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Posted: Saturday, April 07, 2018 - 10:46 PM UTC
Hello all,
I would like to inform you, that another Bronco tack does not fit.
This time it´s the T-142 which is used on the M60. At least around the AFV drive sprocket it does not fit, because of the pitch.
This is already the second time I know of (first is Leopard 2 track around Tamiya drive sprocket), that a Bronco track does not fit.
Thomas
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Minnesota, United States
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Posted: Saturday, April 07, 2018 - 10:51 PM UTC
Looking to meet other MN Armor modellers. I live in Buffalo.
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Posted: Saturday, April 07, 2018 - 11:18 PM UTC
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Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Saturday, April 07, 2018 - 11:42 PM UTC
Thanks for the heads up Thomas. Is AFV still producing their version of the tracks?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorStockholm, Sweden
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Posted: Sunday, April 08, 2018 - 12:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello all,
I would like to inform you, that another Bronco tack does not fit.
This time it´s the T-142 which is used on the M60. At least around the AFV drive sprocket it does not fit, because of the pitch.
This is already the second time I know of (first is Leopard 2 track around Tamiya drive sprocket), that a Bronco track does not fit.
Thomas
Now with larger picture
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Sunday, April 08, 2018 - 01:01 AM UTC
It's because the Bronco track has too much space between track blocks so their track sets are the wrong pitch. There was a thread abut a Takom M60H where it came up.
"The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing should be taken seriously."
Samuel Butler, Victorian satirist
Steve Willoughby
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Posted: Sunday, April 08, 2018 - 01:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
It's because the Bronco track has too much space between track blocks so their track sets are the wrong pitch. There was a thread abut a Takom M60H where it came up.
Same issue as on the Leopard 2 tracks. Are there tracks from them that actually fit?
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Posted: Sunday, April 08, 2018 - 01:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks for the heads up Thomas. Is AFV still producing their version of the tracks?
Yes they do. Initially, I ordered three AFV Club sets, but all three had massive sink hole issues.
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Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Sunday, April 08, 2018 - 01:47 AM UTC
European Union
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Posted: Monday, April 09, 2018 - 07:19 PM UTC
Hm, I think I try to get my hands on a Slingshot Models M48 drive sprocket. Who sells them?
Are M48 and M60 sprockets identical? I suspect the pitch of Bronco´s T142 and T97 being the same.
Thomas
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Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Monday, April 09, 2018 - 10:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hm, I think I try to get my hands on a Slingshot Models M48 drive sprocket. Who sells them?
Are M48 and M60 sprockets identical? I suspect the pitch of Bronco´s T142 and T97 being the same.
Thomas
There are early and late type sprockets. You can tell them apart by the grove on the outer surface of the sprocket. You can check for references whether the vehicle you want to make had which style of sprockets.
I compared the Slingshot sprockets and the AFV Club ones and they have different pitch, so your assumption that the Bronco T142 and the T97 have the same pitch is propably correct. You will need to remove material from the mounting cone on the AFV Club transmission in order to get the Slinshot sprocket on but it can be done.
Take in mind that I do not know if the M48 sprockets had the same pitch as the M60 sprockets in reality, so better wait for someone with more knowledge to confrim.
You will find the Slingshot sprockets on their website:
http://www.slingshotmodels.com/European Union
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Posted: Monday, April 09, 2018 - 11:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Hm, I think I try to get my hands on a Slingshot Models M48 drive sprocket. Who sells them?
Are M48 and M60 sprockets identical? I suspect the pitch of Bronco´s T142 and T97 being the same.
Thomas
There are early and late type sprockets. You can tell them apart by the grove on the outer surface of the sprocket. You can check for references whether the vehicle you want to make had which style of sprockets.
I compared the Slingshot sprockets and the AFV Club ones and they have different pitch, so your assumption that the Bronco T142 and the T97 have the same pitch is propably correct. You will need to remove material from the mounting cone on the AFV Club transmission in order to get the Slinshot sprocket on but it can be done.
Take in mind that I do not know if the M48 sprockets had the same pitch as the M60 sprockets in reality, so better wait for someone with more knowledge to confrim.
You will find the Slingshot sprockets on their website:
http://www.slingshotmodels.com/
Thanks Nikos,
this helps a lot. What do you mean with "grove"? Iknow, that in reality, the sprockets should have the same pitch, but in this case it would be the cheaper option. Bronco tracks (which I have) are cheaper tha Spade Ace or FRiuls.
Thomas
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Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 - 12:05 AM UTC
Early/M48 sprocket:
Late/M60 sprocket:
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Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 - 12:06 AM UTC
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Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 - 01:12 AM UTC
It really doesn't matter, but the sprockets are the same. It's the sprocket rings that are different.
There are also welded sprocket rings that were several pieces welded together.
Notice the little crescent moon shape on two of the teeth? Those are the wear marks. Those get worn down time to replace the sprocket ring. That's how much wear a sprocket ring gets over time.
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Steve Willoughby
Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 - 02:23 PM UTC
I just compared the Esci/Italeri, Tamiya and Academy M60 sprockets with the M48 sprockets from Slingshot and Dragon. They have the same pitch and are almost identical, except the groove on the sprocket rings.
So my guess is that Bronco based their T142 tracks on these kits, since the AFV Club M60 and Takom M48H kits had not been released.
I am waiting a set of Bronco T142 tracks. I will try them on the various M60 sprockets I have. My guess is that they will fit the Academy, Tamiya and Italeri kits and as proved by others, they do not fit the Takom and AFV Club kits.
New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Monday, April 16, 2018 - 08:39 PM UTC
I never like broncos , especially the tracks ! havent bought one in years !
Cluj, Romania
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Posted: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 - 04:32 PM UTC
Hi. I used Bronco's tracks on Tamiya's Leopard 2 and they fit well.
barkingdigger
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, April 20, 2018 - 03:15 PM UTC
Since it sounds like the AFV Club sprockets are different to all the other M60 & M48 sprockets by other makers, does anyone know which is correct? If they were all based on accurate measurements of the real thing you'd expect them all to be the same pitch...
"Glue, or Glue Not - there is no Dry-Fit" - Yoda (original script from Return of the Jedi...)
Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Friday, April 20, 2018 - 04:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Since it sounds like the AFV Club sprockets are different to all the other M60 & M48 sprockets by other makers, does anyone know which is correct? If they were all based on accurate measurements of the real thing you'd expect them all to be the same pitch...
Takom and AFV Club kits have the same sprockets.
Some details on the tracks:
https://www.iso-group.com/sustainment/military-land-vehicles/M60/M60-T142-Track-Shoehttp://www.tgl-sp.com/track-shoe-assyThe dimensions mentioned show that both tracks have almost the same pitch
I am confused
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Posted: Friday, April 20, 2018 - 06:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Since it sounds like the AFV Club sprockets are different to all the other M60 & M48 sprockets by other makers, does anyone know which is correct? If they were all based on accurate measurements of the real thing you'd expect them all to be the same pitch...
Think about it this way: All the other M60 kits are base on a 1970 Tamiya model that originally came with tracks optimized for motorization. AFV-Club is the first to break free of that.
Once upon a time I remember reading an article that said the Tamiya kit had to wrong pitch (as well as the center guides in the wrong place) but as there was no fix for it thirty years ago just go with it.
We also have to keep in mind someone might have based their track on an M88 which has that slightly different pitch that is supposed to be longer, not shorter-- so maybe AFV-club was aware of that since they had done an M88 kit.
And then of course the real thing does vary with track wear and sprocket wear. Look at how far in the sprocket wear rings are? The sprocket can wear down that far and still be used. Track can fit sloppy on the sprocket but you adjust the tension to compensate. It is live track after all.
There are things you can do in real life to compensate for poor fit on a sprocket that you can't on a model. Adjust the tension, change sprocket rings, adjust wedge bolts.
Honestly I'd either switch out the sprockets (or even the rings) or tighten up the the handful of links around the sprocket and just attach the rest to them. The way the Bronco track is assembled it's not too hard to tighten up a couple of links or cut some extra wear into the sprocket and end connectors. Just like happens with real track.
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Steve Willoughby
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Posted: Friday, April 20, 2018 - 09:53 PM UTC
The M48 and M60 series used tracks (T97E2, T142) with a pitch (distance between a point on link 1 to the same point on link 2) of 6-15/16 inches.
Quoted Text
We also have to keep in mind someone might have based their track on an M88 which has that slightly different pitch that is supposed to be longer, not shorter-- so maybe AFV-club was aware of that since they had done an M88 kit.
The M88 uses/was meant to use track with a 7-3/32 pitch (T107). Hopefully AFV Club didn't "split the difference" and make their M88 and M60 sprockets at 7-1/64 to cover both.
KL
barkingdigger
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, April 20, 2018 - 11:45 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hopefully AFV Club didn't "split the difference" and make their M88 and M60 sprockets at 7-1/64 to cover both.
KL
That's why I was wondering if anyone had the skinny on them based on real measurements! Comparing one kit to another is not a good solution. (And the ESCI/Italeri/Revell kits have nothing at all to do with the tooling of the old Tamiya and later Academy clone kits, so if their sprockets are the same pitch/size it is either based on references or a big coincidence...)
"Glue, or Glue Not - there is no Dry-Fit" - Yoda (original script from Return of the Jedi...)
Attica, Greece / Ελλάδα
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 12:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Comparing one kit to another is not a good solution.
I totally agree, but since we are looking into which kit fits which tracks I thought it could prove useful.
Quoted Text
The M88 uses/was meant to use track with a 7-3/32 pitch (T107). Hopefully AFV Club didn't "split the difference" and make their M88 and M60 sprockets at 7-1/64 to cover both.
KL
Looks like AFV Club must have done this. I compared their m60a1 kit sprocket with their M88 sprocket.
The M60 sprocket looks as if they shrunk their m88 sprocket by 0.5mm and corrected the shape. The Slingshot Models m88 sprocket is the same with the m60 sprocket except the obvious sape difference.
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Posted: Saturday, April 21, 2018 - 01:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The M88 uses/was meant to use track with a 7-3/32 pitch (T107). Hopefully AFV Club didn't "split the difference" and make their M88 and M60 sprockets at 7-1/64 to cover both.
Quoted Text
Looks like AFV Club must have done this. I compared their m60a1 kit sprocket with their M88 sprocket.
The M60 sprocket looks as if they shrunk their m88 sprocket by 0.5mm and corrected the shape. The Slingshot Models m88 sprocket is the same with the m60 sprocket except the obvious sape difference.
??? If the M60 sprocket is smaller than the M88 sprocket with the same number of teeth, they must be different pitches (which is correct) and the company did not cheat and use a single pitch for both vehicles (which is wrong).
KL
