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Panda to do M8 Armored Gun System
knewton
Joined: June 19, 2013
KitMaker: 1,217 posts
Armorama: 1,092 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 12:27 AM UTC
Box art is done, along with CAD images.... is this thing even accepted into service yet? It looks impressive in real life.
Shalta
Joined: August 23, 2016
KitMaker: 165 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 12:43 AM UTC
Link for those who didnt see: https://toylandhobbymodelingmagazinepublishing.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/new-from-pandahobby-model-ph35039-m8-ags/
Its not in service AFAIK, but I've been wanting a kit of this tank for about 2 years now. I'm definetly getting one as soon as it releases!
Still waiting on a Stingray light tank, though, lol.
Its not in service AFAIK, but I've been wanting a kit of this tank for about 2 years now. I'm definetly getting one as soon as it releases!
Still waiting on a Stingray light tank, though, lol.
DG0542
Joined: March 04, 2015
KitMaker: 125 posts
Armorama: 125 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 01:13 AM UTC
Very nice, at one time I thought about scratch building one.
Precious_rob
Joined: March 09, 2009
KitMaker: 206 posts
Armorama: 183 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 01:48 AM UTC
"is this thing even accepted into service yet?"
No, the project was canceled in 1997, and the army went with the M1128 Styker Mobile Gun System instead. There is six or seven prototypes floating around somewhere, but Im not really sure where they are now.
Though there is apparently an upgraded version BAE is trying to shop around to the Army next year
No, the project was canceled in 1997, and the army went with the M1128 Styker Mobile Gun System instead. There is six or seven prototypes floating around somewhere, but Im not really sure where they are now.
Though there is apparently an upgraded version BAE is trying to shop around to the Army next year
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 02:06 AM UTC
Interesting!
/ Robin
/ Robin
knewton
Joined: June 19, 2013
KitMaker: 1,217 posts
Armorama: 1,092 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 03:38 AM UTC
And no ERA on the vehicle, either.
tanknick22
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 1,100 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 07:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
"is this thing even accepted into service yet?"
No, the project was canceled in 1997, and the army went with the M1128 Styker Mobile Gun System instead. There is six or seven prototypes floating around somewhere, but Im not really sure where they are now.
Though there is apparently an upgraded version BAE is trying to shop around to the Army next year
About 6 months ago I read somewhere the ARMY is going to award a contact for a new light tank and BAE is going to submit the M8 Buford as the M8 was going to be called
the other competeter is General Dymanics Land Systems
the winning will get the contract to build 54 light tanks for ARMY the light units for a service entry in 2025
system
Joined: November 24, 2008
KitMaker: 364 posts
Armorama: 363 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 02:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
"is this thing even accepted into service yet?"
No, the project was canceled in 1997, and the army went with the M1128 Styker Mobile Gun System instead. There is six or seven prototypes floating around somewhere, but Im not really sure where they are now.
Why did it get type-classified as the M8 rather than just staying the XM8? Did it ever formally go into 'production'?
tanknick22
Joined: February 19, 2009
KitMaker: 1,139 posts
Armorama: 1,100 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 02:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text"is this thing even accepted into service yet?"
No, the project was canceled in 1997, and the army went with the M1128 Styker Mobile Gun System instead. There is six or seven prototypes floating around somewhere, but Im not really sure where they are now.
Why did it get type-classified as the M8 rather than just staying the XM8? Did it ever formally go into 'production'?
it was ready for production when it was canceled
2805662
Joined: March 27, 2008
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 541 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 06:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
"is this thing even accepted into service yet?"
No, the project was canceled in 1997, and the army went with the M1128 Styker Mobile Gun System instead.
Side note: The M1128 was fielded in (and the “Interim Armored Vehicle” program that resulted in the adoption of the Stryker) weren’t even conceived [for the US Army] at the time that the M8 was cancelled in 1997.
BAE has provided the M8 as it’s response to the US Army’s Mobile Protected Firepower solicitation, hardly “shopping it around”. Having scratch builds in 1/72, 1:35, & 1/16 scale in various states of completion, I’m chuffed to see this release!
viper29_ca
Joined: October 18, 2002
KitMaker: 2,247 posts
Armorama: 1,138 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2018 - 06:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
And no ERA on the vehicle, either.
Model manufacture 101, gives them room to release a 2nd one down the road with the ERA
2805662
Joined: March 27, 2008
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 541 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 10:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
“....BAE is going to submit the M8 Buford as the M8 was going to be called”
“Buford” was a thought bubble from Tom Clancy in his “Armored Cav” book in the mid/late 1990s. Would love to see evidence to the contrary, but “Buford” is to the M8 as “Gavin” is to the M113.
2CAVTrooper
Joined: October 21, 2005
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 302 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 11:14 AM UTC
I've seen it referred to the Buford in several places, but this is probably the unofficial name.
The nutcase from "Combat Reform" that insists on calling the M113 the "Gavin", calls the M8 the "Ridgeway".
The nutcase from "Combat Reform" that insists on calling the M113 the "Gavin", calls the M8 the "Ridgeway".
m75
Joined: July 20, 2002
KitMaker: 666 posts
Armorama: 661 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 09:05 PM UTC
Images suggest that M113 series road wheels and idlers are used, plus (maybe?) Diehl drive sprockets?
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 19, 2018 - 10:03 PM UTC
The Buford name was dropped when the M8 was cancelled. Now it's M8 AGS at least according to its current marketing. The BAE salesman pitch video can be found on YouTube. Or at least it's the salesman going over everything for Army recognition.
The Ridgeway name was given to the M8 in a role-playing game as was the Gavin to the M113. That's right, those gamers strike again just like Warthunder game calls the M8 the Thunderbolt.
It all goes back to Twilight 2000 from the late 1980s. The NATO vehicle source guide called the M8 the Ridgeway and the M113 (or an American AIFV lookalike) the Gavin.
For all it matters might as well call it the Gandalf.
Enemy armor SHALL NOT PASS!
The Ridgeway name was given to the M8 in a role-playing game as was the Gavin to the M113. That's right, those gamers strike again just like Warthunder game calls the M8 the Thunderbolt.
It all goes back to Twilight 2000 from the late 1980s. The NATO vehicle source guide called the M8 the Ridgeway and the M113 (or an American AIFV lookalike) the Gavin.
For all it matters might as well call it the Gandalf.
Enemy armor SHALL NOT PASS!
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 20, 2018 - 12:35 AM UTC
I applaud Panda's effort, but I too think it's premature because the 2018 M8 AGS looks vastly different than even the 2016 prototype.
Back in 2016 or 2017, BAE said that they wanted to revamp the M8's interior with digital electronics and so forth.
Take a look here:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/article/bae-systems-submits-proposal-for-the-u-s--army-s-mobile-protected-firepower-program
The M8 2018 prototype now has square (LED?) headlights, perhaps a forward camera, smoke grenade launchers, wind sensor, and just freaking looks better. The M8 kit that Panada might make is of the prototype that was cancelled. The M8 2016 prototype never saw service outside of testing.
The M8 AGS won over the Stryker MGS, actually. The US Army went ahead with the Stryker MGS because of the lack of money and political will to field the M8 AGS. No one wanted it except Light Infantry and Airborne Army generals, meaning it hardly made a dent compared to US Army Armored Calvary, Marine Armor, and Heavy Armor generals. M8 AGS, or any US Light Tank couldn't get a piece of the budget pie and spotlight enough, and it has been a capability gap ever since because 40mm MK-19 on a HMMWV to 25mm cannon on a Bradley is a HUGE weight difference in terms of firepower (before the Stryker 30mm turret).
You can read more about the US Army's Light Tank Competition here as there seems to be a newer turret that I don't know if it's BAE or General Dynamic's "Griffin" tank. (I think the tan tank is the "Griffin" due to the smoke discharger placement. And notice that it has no turret crew hatches!). It is remote-controlled turret? It's just too soon to tell in the testing competition what will be selected, how it will look like, and if it will be cancelled or actually enter service.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/267510#2261890
Back in 2016 or 2017, BAE said that they wanted to revamp the M8's interior with digital electronics and so forth.
Take a look here:
https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/article/bae-systems-submits-proposal-for-the-u-s--army-s-mobile-protected-firepower-program
The M8 2018 prototype now has square (LED?) headlights, perhaps a forward camera, smoke grenade launchers, wind sensor, and just freaking looks better. The M8 kit that Panada might make is of the prototype that was cancelled. The M8 2016 prototype never saw service outside of testing.
The M8 AGS won over the Stryker MGS, actually. The US Army went ahead with the Stryker MGS because of the lack of money and political will to field the M8 AGS. No one wanted it except Light Infantry and Airborne Army generals, meaning it hardly made a dent compared to US Army Armored Calvary, Marine Armor, and Heavy Armor generals. M8 AGS, or any US Light Tank couldn't get a piece of the budget pie and spotlight enough, and it has been a capability gap ever since because 40mm MK-19 on a HMMWV to 25mm cannon on a Bradley is a HUGE weight difference in terms of firepower (before the Stryker 30mm turret).
You can read more about the US Army's Light Tank Competition here as there seems to be a newer turret that I don't know if it's BAE or General Dynamic's "Griffin" tank. (I think the tan tank is the "Griffin" due to the smoke discharger placement. And notice that it has no turret crew hatches!). It is remote-controlled turret? It's just too soon to tell in the testing competition what will be selected, how it will look like, and if it will be cancelled or actually enter service.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/267510#2261890
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 20, 2018 - 12:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I applaud Panda's effort, but I too think it's premature because the 2018 M8 AGS looks vastly different than even the 2016 prototype.
I respectfully disagree about the timing. This simply lets Panda release multiple versions, beginning with the original prototype. The measurements were certainly more easy to obtain from the original.
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 20, 2018 - 01:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI applaud Panda's effort, but I too think it's premature because the 2018 M8 AGS looks vastly different than even the 2016 prototype.
I respectfully disagree about the timing. This simply lets Panda release multiple versions, beginning with the original prototype. The measurements were certainly more easy to obtain from the original.
True enough.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 20, 2018 - 02:32 AM UTC
The "Griffin" has no crew hatches on the turret because the crew are all in the hull. Another one of those YouTube videos showed it.
The Army was already committed to production of the Stryker and didn't want a totally new vehicle in the inventory. So M1128 MGS. Don't worry all the manuals and testing was done by tankers at Fort Knox. One of the guys I served with in the National Guard had a hand in writing the gunnery manuals. If I had been able to stay in that's probably what I would have ended up doing.
The Army was already committed to production of the Stryker and didn't want a totally new vehicle in the inventory. So M1128 MGS. Don't worry all the manuals and testing was done by tankers at Fort Knox. One of the guys I served with in the National Guard had a hand in writing the gunnery manuals. If I had been able to stay in that's probably what I would have ended up doing.
2805662
Joined: March 27, 2008
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 541 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 20, 2018 - 03:14 AM UTC
“Thunderbolt” was the OEM name for the trial vehicle(s?) fitted with a 120mm gun and a hybrid electric drive. The space originally claimed by the engine was mocked up as space for four dismounts.
bramah4
Joined: December 10, 2009
KitMaker: 120 posts
Armorama: 118 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 10:11 PM UTC
I am very excited about this release. At last an American venture into new armour albeit this version was to replace the Sheridan...but this gives way to more upgrade releases and potentially a basis for the next American light tank as the AGS. I never thought this would ever be a styrene release. Well done Panda. I applaud your gutsy move. I look forward to this on my workbench in y
the near future.
the near future.
viper29_ca
Joined: October 18, 2002
KitMaker: 2,247 posts
Armorama: 1,138 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 08:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Buford name was dropped when the M8 was cancelled. Now it's M8 AGS at least according to its current marketing. The BAE salesman pitch video can be found on YouTube. Or at least it's the salesman going over everything for Army recognition.
The Ridgeway name was given to the M8 in a role-playing game as was the Gavin to the M113. That's right, those gamers strike again just like Warthunder game calls the M8 the Thunderbolt.
It all goes back to Twilight 2000 from the late 1980s. The NATO vehicle source guide called the M8 the Ridgeway and the M113 (or an American AIFV lookalike) the Gavin.
For all it matters might as well call it the Gandalf.
Enemy armor SHALL NOT PASS!
I believe they call it the Buford and the Thunderbolt II in the game Armored Warfare as well.
Stingray, Stingray II, M8 Buford and Thunderbolt II
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Friday, May 25, 2018 - 02:32 AM UTC
The Cadillac Gage/Textron Stingray I and II are different tanks from the BAE (used to be FMC/United Defense) M8 AGS. M8 AGS is nicknamed the "Thunderbolt II" and "Buford" is an online nickname someone gave it.
Stingray I has armor 14.5mm AP on the frontal arc and 7.62mm ball all around. Stingray II ups the armor to 23mm AP frontal arc and 14.5mm all around. The Stingrays have the triangle wedge-shape front turret like the Leopard 2A5 shape. The M8 AGS always has the flat front face turret.
No one really knows the armor protection levels on the M8. Some think the Panda M8 AGS version is 7.62mm AP or 14.5mm AP frontal arc and 7.62mm AP or ball all around without ERA or add-on armor. Some say that with add-on armor, the protection levels can go up to 30mm AP, but that's just a guess. Those levels were back before all the new armor advances like add-on composites and ceramics.
Stingray I has armor 14.5mm AP on the frontal arc and 7.62mm ball all around. Stingray II ups the armor to 23mm AP frontal arc and 14.5mm all around. The Stingrays have the triangle wedge-shape front turret like the Leopard 2A5 shape. The M8 AGS always has the flat front face turret.
No one really knows the armor protection levels on the M8. Some think the Panda M8 AGS version is 7.62mm AP or 14.5mm AP frontal arc and 7.62mm AP or ball all around without ERA or add-on armor. Some say that with add-on armor, the protection levels can go up to 30mm AP, but that's just a guess. Those levels were back before all the new armor advances like add-on composites and ceramics.
tedward
Joined: July 22, 2002
KitMaker: 53 posts
Armorama: 40 posts
Posted: Monday, September 03, 2018 - 03:52 AM UTC
Saw the test fitting pictures of Panda M8 AGS from a Chinese forum :
http://www.moxing.net/2018/0903/9333.html
http://www.moxing.net/2018/0903/9333.html
Trisaw
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Friday, September 07, 2018 - 02:40 AM UTC
Wow, the build photos look really nice!
IMO, if it was in US Army service, I think it would have made some operational differences. Nothing beats a 105mm cannon and some light armor in certain tactical situations.
IMO, if it was in US Army service, I think it would have made some operational differences. Nothing beats a 105mm cannon and some light armor in certain tactical situations.
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