Hosted by Darren Baker
BAE Beats Upstart SAIC To Build Marine Amphib
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 03:40 AM UTC
The Marine Corps has chosen long-time tank-maker BAE over upstart SAIC to build its new Amphibious Combat Vehicle. A wheeled troop carrier capable of swimming from Navy ships to shore and then driving deep inland, the ACV will replace the aging, ungainly, and under-armored AAV as the spearhead of amphibious assaults. The ability to conduct such landings is the modern Marine Corps’ raison d’être — but it’s come into question, even by the Senate, in this era of long-range missiles.
The initial contract announced today was just $198 million for the first 30 vehicles, to be delivered by next fall. 30 more will come the next year, with Initial Operational Testing & Evaluation (IOT&E) and a decision to go to Full Rate Production expected in 2020. Overall, Marine officials told reporters they want to replace approximately 870 existing AAVs with ACVs “as rapidly as we can,” which will take into “the mid to late ’20s.” The current budget plan values the first 204 vehicles at an $1.12 billion.
Winner BAE Systems is an international giant, the eighth largest defense contractor the US and third largest in the world. Among many other things, it builds and upgrades the M2 Bradley troop carrier and M109 Paladin howitzer, both heavy tracked vehicles, at its York, Pennsylvania factory. BAE or its predecessor companies have built every Marine amphibious armored vehicle since the amtracs of World War II.
SAIC, by contrast, started out as a consulting and services company, noted for its engineering expertise. It branched out during the Iraq War to work on MRAPS, essentially uparmored trucks. Its Charleston, SC facility installs high-grade military gear like electronics on other companies’ vehicles and upgrades the Marines’ existing AAVs. So the wheeled ACV was SAIC’s first foray into both full-size armored fighting vehicles and into manufacturing, making it the riskier option for the Marine Corps. SAIC, in a statement, said while it was “disappointed…we are committed to growing this line of business” — but failure here is a bad sign for SAIC’s other armored vehicle bid, to build the US Army’s tracked Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) light tank.
Despite their differences, both companies offered basically similar 8×8 vehicles. Both started with foreign designs, since the US is a world leader in tracked armored vehicles but not in wheeled ones. BAE collaborated with Italy’s IVECO (subsidiary of world-famous Fiat) to offer a variant of the SuperAV/Freccia/Centauro family in Italian service since 1991. SAIC partnered with Singapore’s ST Kinetics to offer an upgrade of the Singaporean army’s Terrex. (For comparison, the main 8×8 armored fighting vehicles already in US service, neither of them amphibious, are the Marine LAV and Army Stryker, both descendants of the Swiss MOWAG Piranha).
The most obvious difference: The BAE vehicle can carry two more infantrymen. While both vehicles had a crew of three up front — driver, gunner, and commander — BAE could carry 13 fully equipped foot soldiers in the back, while SAIC could only carry 11. Since the current Marine rifle squad is 13 men, and the future squad will shrink to 12 (including a drone operator), that may have been a crippling disadvantage for SAIC.Is ACV Irrelevant?
Even as the Marines award the contract for what they’re calling ACV 1.1, the Senate Armed Services Committee wants to freeze spending on the next phase of the Amphibious Combat Vehicle program, ACV 1.2. The program may only proceed once the Pentagon reports to Congress on the viability of amphibious landing in future warfare. Or, to quote the Senate draft: “whether amphibious forced entry operations against advanced peer competitors should remain an enduring mission for the joint force considering the stressing operational nature and significant resource requirements of such mission.”
Marines will have to rely on the current Amphibious Assault Vehicle (AAV) to carry them ashore for years to come.
That’s a long way of stating the big question the Marine Corps must confront: whether the amphibious assaults which the ACV is built for, and which have been central to the Marines’ identity since World War II, have become suicidal with the spread of long-range precision missiles. Land-based anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs) can sink Navy ships hundreds of miles offshore, anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) can kill armored vehicles as they swim in, and RPGs and landmines can hit anyone who makes it to the beach.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 05:46 AM UTC
interesting, as TACOM has already tooled up the AAAV. We're probably talking several billion dollars (20 year old value) being flushed down the toilet!
gary
gary
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 05:59 AM UTC
I can see HobbyBoss or Bronco doing one of these. Maybe, AFV Club.
Removed by original poster on 06/20/18 - 19:23:17 (GMT).
knewton
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Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 08:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I can see HobbyBoss or Bronco doing one of these. Maybe, AFV Club.
Nah, $10 says Panda does it first.
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 08:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI can see HobbyBoss or Bronco doing one of these. Maybe, AFV Club.
Nah, $10 says Panda does it first.
Sorry, my prefered bourbon is $50 a bottle.
mogdude
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Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 09:13 AM UTC
Looks good but as mentioned with the missile threats why are these things getting larger instead of lower profiled sure makes a large target and whats the armor made of unless its aluminium you have a large weight factor especially when they start adding on explosive
reactive armor or bar armor to increase survival ability from rpgs etc or am I incorrect
reactive armor or bar armor to increase survival ability from rpgs etc or am I incorrect
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - 12:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Looks good but as mentioned with the missile threats why are these things getting larger instead of lower profiled sure makes a large target and whats the armor made of unless its aluminium you have a large weight factor especially when they start adding on explosive
reactive armor or bar armor to increase survival ability from rpgs etc or am I incorrect
Can't really help the size, the mission and survivability requirements drive what ultimately ends up at the beach. When you see the evolution of LVT/AAV/ACV side by side, the AAV7 is the smallest of the group. Even the WWII LVT4 makes the AAV look tiny. Crewman joked that LVT stood for "Large Vehicle Targets" not Landing Vehicle Tracked.
ACV 1.1 is only an interim solution to augment, not replace the AAV until technology matures enough to deliver what the EFV could not. Weight limitations restrict addition of reactive armor and even the P7 has only EAAK which is little more than standoff armor. However even that is only installed on "MEU" vehicles or those "in country" so to speak. Otherwise the EAAK corrodes (salt water wreaks havoc on steel, look at RAM/RS roadwheels, just rusty discs) and it is a pointless strain on suspension and drivetrain for stateside vehicles.
I would like to see someone do a kit of the STK Terrex, it is an interesting vehicle. Didn't China impound a ship load of them not too long ago? I'm sure they went over those things with combs and 3D scanners so someone surely can kit this thing.
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 02:54 AM UTC
Being from Kentucky, thank you for the reference to Bourbon!
Woodford? Makers? Turkey? I also like Jack but that makes me a tractor to my state.
Woodford? Makers? Turkey? I also like Jack but that makes me a tractor to my state.
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 04:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Being from Kentucky, thank you for the reference to Bourbon!
Woodford? Makers? Turkey? I also like Jack but that makes me a tractor to my state.
1792 Full Proof
18Bravo
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Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 08:03 AM UTC
I spent 90% of my money on whiskey, women, and motorcycles. The rest I just sorta wasted...
Don't laugh at the Honey Jim Beam - it, brown sugar and butter makes the best salmon steaks you've ever tasted.
Don't laugh at the Honey Jim Beam - it, brown sugar and butter makes the best salmon steaks you've ever tasted.
panamadan
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Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 10:11 AM UTC
Old Crow man. I’ve had more adventures under its influence than I can remember.
Dan
Dan
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 01:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I spent 90% of my money on whiskey, women, and motorcycles. The rest I just sorta wasted...
Don't laugh at the Honey Jim Beam - it, brown sugar and butter makes the best salmon steaks you've ever tasted.
Salmon, someone say salmon??
knewton
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Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 - 04:23 PM UTC
Wow, that is one sweet fish. But I’ll stick with my venison and Laphroaig single malt, thanks.
SEDimmick
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Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 04:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
interesting, as TACOM has already tooled up the AAAV. We're probably talking several billion dollars (20 year old value) being flushed down the toilet!
gary
Not really-the Marines can't afford 20 million+ vehicle that didn't quite work as advertised.
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 05:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Textinteresting, as TACOM has already tooled up the AAAV. We're probably talking several billion dollars (20 year old value) being flushed down the toilet!
gary
Not really-the Marines can't afford 20 million+ vehicle that didn't quite work as advertised.
Trust me, the hardware was an impressive piece of gear! There was a lot of software issues as well as how the program conducted/performed the development which sank the program.
Was able on several occasions to chase behind while in a RHIB while it was doing 30kts. Freak'n hauling on the open ocean in a 30+ ton tracked vehicle - tracks were retracted into the hull of course. And the weapons station - incomparable!
trickymissfit
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Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 - 02:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
linkname Quoted TextQuoted Textinteresting, as TACOM has already tooled up the AAAV. We're probably talking several billion dollars (20 year old value) being flushed down the toilet!
gary
Not really-the Marines can't afford 20 million+ vehicle that didn't quite work as advertised.
Trust me, the hardware was an impressive piece of gear! There was a lot of software issues as well as how the program conducted/performed the development which sank the program.
Was able on several occasions to chase behind while in a RHIB while it was doing 30kts. Freak'n hauling on the open ocean in a 30+ ton tracked vehicle - tracks were retracted into the hull of course. And the weapons station - incomparable!
prototypes went 40+ knots on shore testing. Were capable of going faster than a typical gun could track it. Software was never a real serious issue, and would have been overcame long before production. The real issue was lobbyist pushing off substandard equipment on the tax payer.
gary
Trisaw
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Posted: Sunday, July 01, 2018 - 03:27 AM UTC
The canceled AAAV produced the 30mm Bushmaster II turret found on the LCS and San Antonio class LPDs.
It's high time that the US Marines adopted a new ACV.
I still think that the USMC need to up-arm it though with a remote weapons turret of the 25mm to 30mm class. CROWS II with 12.7mm M2HB or MK-19 m40mm GL just won't cut it anymore in terms of firepower, even with a Javelin ATGM on the side of the CROWS II. Also, installing Trophy and Iron Fist Active Protection Systems would be beneficial.
It's high time that the US Marines adopted a new ACV.
I still think that the USMC need to up-arm it though with a remote weapons turret of the 25mm to 30mm class. CROWS II with 12.7mm M2HB or MK-19 m40mm GL just won't cut it anymore in terms of firepower, even with a Javelin ATGM on the side of the CROWS II. Also, installing Trophy and Iron Fist Active Protection Systems would be beneficial.