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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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How much does it cost??
d6mst0
#453
Joined: August 28, 2016
KitMaker: 1,925 posts
Armorama: 601 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 11:47 PM UTC
I find it funny that everyone who doesn't think MSRP is important makes references to it just about every time. The business world is alive and well.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 02:22 AM UTC
Why wouldn't we mention the subject being discussed?
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 03:36 AM UTC
Here's the problem with an MSRP
That's quite evident when three different online shops list three different MSRP's for the same item. How are you to determine which is the actual MSRP? You can't. Your best, and only logical, option is to choose the retailer selling that particular item at the lowest price. It ain't rocket surgery.
More on MSRP:
Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
Quoted Text
In many instances, the MSRP is manipulated to an unreasonably high figure so retailers can deceptively advertise a product, listing a much lower sale price and indicate to consumers they are getting a far better bargain than in actuality.
That's quite evident when three different online shops list three different MSRP's for the same item. How are you to determine which is the actual MSRP? You can't. Your best, and only logical, option is to choose the retailer selling that particular item at the lowest price. It ain't rocket surgery.
More on MSRP:
Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 04:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I find it funny that everyone who doesn't think MSRP is important makes references to it just about every time. The business world is alive and well.
The business world is indeed alive and well, even if some misinformed politicians in various parts of the world tries to manipulate markets with import tariffs on various goods and commodities. If I were to use "the concept which should not mentioned, CWSNM, to compare prices before buying I would have to factor in the CWSNM for all the local markets that my internet access might tap into and then add shipping, customs, handling charges et.c.
What I do now is to compare the actual prices in the relevant shops and then add the shipping and stuff.
The CWSNM in the US means very little to me when I look at a shop in SE-Asia or in Japan.
The CWSNM for Sweden, if one existed, would also mean very little since the selection of LHS here in Stockholm is very limited (one shop with a barely reasonable selection and one with a very limited stock).
If there is a large selection of vendors on a local market the CWSNM might possibly be useful but if I do not check all the shops then I might still be paying too much. Getting 5% below CWSNM in one shop looks fine until I realise that the shop a few blocks away sells the product for 15% below CWSNM.
In my opinion the CWSNM is completely useless in the internet age. The internet has, in a way, brought all vendors together into some kind of reverse auction where the lowest bidder gets the purchase. Note that lazy customers will never get the best deal
Back to the original question:
Reviewers could list the prices for a few, handful, of the largest or most well known internet shops. This would give the reader a rough idea about what kind of money we are talking about. Sells for x USD at HobbyLinkJapan means it should be somewhere around y USD here in France/Germany/US/UK/South Africa/Sweden/backside-of-beyond et.c
The CWSNM could be replaced with the price at a few of the large internet shops.
On the other hand: It takes me just a few minutes to get these numbers myself and the advantage is that those would be relevant numbers. The price at HLJ half a year ago when the review was written does not necessarily reflect what the kit "should" cost today. The CWSNM printed on the box a year ago means even less ...
/ Robin
RussianArmor
Joined: February 06, 2017
KitMaker: 111 posts
Armorama: 96 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 04:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Here's the problem with an MSRPQuoted TextIn many instances, the MSRP is manipulated to an unreasonably high figure so retailers can deceptively advertise a product, listing a much lower sale price and indicate to consumers they are getting a far better bargain than in actuality.
That's quite evident when three different online shops list three different MSRP's for the same item. How are you to determine which is the actual MSRP? You can't. Your best, and only logical, option is to choose the retailer selling that particular item at the lowest price. It ain't rocket surgery.
More on MSRP:
Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price
You are very correct. MSRP is a worthless metric to use to determine value. For example, the new Trumpeter 2A3 Kondensator kit has three different MSRP values depending on who you shop:
Squadron - $132.99 USD
Hobby Search - $161.05 USD
ModelBau - $110.84 USD (or 94.99 Euros as of today)
So, for those who think it has some value, which one would you pick to post in a review? Which one is "correct"?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 05:00 AM UTC
https://www.modellbau-universe.de/produkt;soviet-2a3-kondensator-2p-406mm-self-propelled-howitzer-trumpeter;tru~09529;4;1;1;1.htm
They have the UVP-price crossed over ....
79.99 Euro ....
;)
/ Robin
They have the UVP-price crossed over ....
79.99 Euro ....
;)
/ Robin
RussianArmor
Joined: February 06, 2017
KitMaker: 111 posts
Armorama: 96 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 05:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
https://www.modellbau-universe.de/produkt;soviet-2a3-kondensator-2p-406mm-self-propelled-howitzer-trumpeter;tru~09529;4;1;1;1.htm
They have the UVP-price crossed over ....
79.99 Euro ....
;)
/ Robin
Yeah, that their sale price. The UVP or, in German Unverbindliche Verkaufspreis, is the suggested retail price, or 94.99 Euros
79.99 Euros is a good price. It's running around $106 in the US.
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 05:29 AM UTC
@David S., Robin N., Joe Z., Bill C.;
Spot ON, guys! You all seem to see what I think is the simple and bright light on kit buying in our times!
Do your search and a little careful "math" to ensure that you really are determining the FULL price the kit will cost you, and buy the one which is cheapest overall to get your "best deal". Whatever someone offered as the kit's "MSRP" doesn't figure into any of this search or calculating.
@Drabslab; You are certes correct in saying that the MSRP is a suggestion TO RETAILERS for how to price their goods in a market. That's what it is - something for SELLERS. Not much for BUYERS.
But perhaps the REAL valid point you sort of touched on is that that "market" is no longer anything like what it was when "MSRP" were first created. Yes, "back when", the market actually consisted for all practical purposes to that (usually very small) number of local stores relatively close enough together so that buyers could shop among them - local competitors. As we know, that old "universe", where "MSRP" may well have had some meaning and utility to buyers, has vanished. We are now effectively in a GLOBAL "street", and vendors need to compete globally - because we can easily SHOP "the world" via the internet. And "MSRP" here in the 'States mean nada to vendors in Asia or Europe.
Perhaps Shell. B. opened a little "light" onto the reality of shopping...
Shopping DOES TAKE TIME. And willingness to do it. That, friends, is totally up to the BUYER. Some don't bother to shop around and some just like some vendor regardless. These folks should be perfectly HAPPY with likely paying MORE for their kit than they might otherwise, were they to just spend a LITTLE time and effort SHOPPING! By me, it never takes more than a few minutes to get a pretty good "read" of a huge range of global prices.
I start with an eBay search and then do a Google for other vendors... It's a few minutes, and perhaps a 30 - 40% savings (or even more in some weird cases.). Shopping IS a "cost" - you need to decide how much your TIME is worth.
It's been a good chat and lots of interesting perspectives. Now let's go do some MODELING!
Spot ON, guys! You all seem to see what I think is the simple and bright light on kit buying in our times!
Do your search and a little careful "math" to ensure that you really are determining the FULL price the kit will cost you, and buy the one which is cheapest overall to get your "best deal". Whatever someone offered as the kit's "MSRP" doesn't figure into any of this search or calculating.
@Drabslab; You are certes correct in saying that the MSRP is a suggestion TO RETAILERS for how to price their goods in a market. That's what it is - something for SELLERS. Not much for BUYERS.
But perhaps the REAL valid point you sort of touched on is that that "market" is no longer anything like what it was when "MSRP" were first created. Yes, "back when", the market actually consisted for all practical purposes to that (usually very small) number of local stores relatively close enough together so that buyers could shop among them - local competitors. As we know, that old "universe", where "MSRP" may well have had some meaning and utility to buyers, has vanished. We are now effectively in a GLOBAL "street", and vendors need to compete globally - because we can easily SHOP "the world" via the internet. And "MSRP" here in the 'States mean nada to vendors in Asia or Europe.
Perhaps Shell. B. opened a little "light" onto the reality of shopping...
Shopping DOES TAKE TIME. And willingness to do it. That, friends, is totally up to the BUYER. Some don't bother to shop around and some just like some vendor regardless. These folks should be perfectly HAPPY with likely paying MORE for their kit than they might otherwise, were they to just spend a LITTLE time and effort SHOPPING! By me, it never takes more than a few minutes to get a pretty good "read" of a huge range of global prices.
I start with an eBay search and then do a Google for other vendors... It's a few minutes, and perhaps a 30 - 40% savings (or even more in some weird cases.). Shopping IS a "cost" - you need to decide how much your TIME is worth.
It's been a good chat and lots of interesting perspectives. Now let's go do some MODELING!
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 07:37 AM UTC
I will say that I have years of retail management experience from working in a store in Manhattan that cleared over $20 million annually, where I took turns both in inventory and merchandising as department manager.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Friday, July 13, 2018 - 04:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
How do you know if you are getting a "good deal" if you don't know the MSRP?
It's very easy. Assume there's a kit out there that I decide I want to buy. I check out 15 online hobby shops and sellers, and coincidentally there's a big model show the next weekend. The prices online range from $43 to $72 (mostly $55 or more). As far as I'm concerned, the kit is worth $50 - $60 to me and I'd be willing to pay something like that for it, so I take $55 bucks to the show. Now the people at the show are all in the top half of the online range except for one guy who has them at $32, so I snap it up. Simply by looking at market prices, I KNOW I GOT A GOOD DEAL! Was the MSRP $55? $90? $22? I don't know and I don't care. What difference would knowing that make to me as a consumer? I got the kit for $28 less than what most people are asking and $11 less than the next lowest seller. That information alone is enough to say I GOT A GOOD DEAL!
Quoted Text
you can "shop around" all you want, but you still won't know what the manufacturer thinks the kit is worth.
That's true, but WHO [auto-censored]ING CARES? What matters is what I think it's worth! Why should I care if the seller is making a 2% profit or 200% profit? It is not as if I could use that information to negotiate a better deal for myself or start an uprising.
This sounds a whole lot like the old Ebay arguments where guys adamantly refused to buy from somebody charging $20 shipping because shipping can't/shouldn't cost that much. They simply could not push aside their righteous indignation long enough to see that the guy with $20 shipping was selling the kit for $25 while the "honest" guys were charging $40 with $7 shipping. I'M NOT GOING TO PAY $20 FOR SHIPPING - HE IS RIPPING ME OFF!!!
KL
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 12:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Jiminy Christmas!!!
I didn't mean to open this can of worms....
But I will say that it seems like a COP OUT that someone is willing to take the time to review a kit, but won't take the extra 2 minutes to find those price ranges, in USD, EUR, and YEN and put that range WITH THE REVIEW AS AN MSRP????
(Sorry, not yelling)
Hi Joe,
Yeah, it's amazing how excitable folks can get over a number most of us mere mortals never get to see!
As for reviewers doing price-comparison research, I feel that's not my job. I provide a review of the contents of the box - is it accurate? Does it go together? Are the markings correct? But I leave the shopping to the reader. As somebody mentioned here, any price research becomes irrelevant after a while when that "new" kit is now only found on ebay or at "dead men's stash" resellers at shows - by then it's a personal judgement call about what you are willing to pay rather than any official value. And when the kit is new I assume you can do that two minutes of price research just as easily as me, so why should I waste any more of my volunteered reviewing time on it? Besides, my choice of websellers may not work for you, so it doesn't help you if I say the kit can be found cheap at a shop you can't order from! That's my reasoning anyway...
joepanzer
Joined: January 21, 2004
KitMaker: 803 posts
Armorama: 740 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 02:32 AM UTC
Thanks All.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 04:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextJiminy Christmas!!!
I didn't mean to open this can of worms....
But I will say that it seems like a COP OUT that someone is willing to take the time to review a kit, but won't take the extra 2 minutes to find those price ranges, in USD, EUR, and YEN and put that range WITH THE REVIEW AS AN MSRP????
(Sorry, not yelling)
Hi Joe,
Yeah, it's amazing how excitable folks can get over a number most of us mere mortals never get to see!
As for reviewers doing price-comparison research, I feel that's not my job. I provide a review of the contents of the box - is it accurate? Does it go together? Are the markings correct? But I leave the shopping to the reader. As somebody mentioned here, any price research becomes irrelevant after a while when that "new" kit is now only found on ebay or at "dead men's stash" resellers at shows - by then it's a personal judgement call about what you are willing to pay rather than any official value. And when the kit is new I assume you can do that two minutes of price research just as easily as me, so why should I waste any more of my volunteered reviewing time on it? Besides, my choice of websellers may not work for you, so it doesn't help you if I say the kit can be found cheap at a shop you can't order from! That's my reasoning anyway...
Amen!
/ Robin
Vicious
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2018 - 09:46 AM UTC
For me as a buyer the MSRP made sense before the advent of internet and e-shops, if we now add also the smartphones is his death, wherever I am today I can either from home,Show or LHS in a few minutes compare prices and understand the average price,at that point to know how much the manufacturer evaluates its product does not interest me at all, also because the possibility of paying the kit more than the MSRP is equal to 0.
in short, the MSRP is the legacy of the past ...
in short, the MSRP is the legacy of the past ...
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