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Bulgarian tank markings
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 03:12 PM UTC
Some decal sheets and color profiles show the Bulgarian crosses in black, some green. Accurate? What reason? What time frame?
TheGreatPumpkin
Vendor
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 03:27 PM UTC
Timothy,
I think you mean Hungarian markings? They used 2 different styles of crosses. The Red, white and green crosses were from 1941-43 and the black and white ones were 1944-45. HTH.
Regards,
Georg
Hungarian decals
I think you mean Hungarian markings? They used 2 different styles of crosses. The Red, white and green crosses were from 1941-43 and the black and white ones were 1944-45. HTH.
Regards,
Georg
Hungarian decals
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 04:54 PM UTC
Nope. Bulgarian. Markings were black , diagonal crosses. Look like they were done with a big Sharpie. Some references (not photographs) show the crosses in green. Color changed after surrendering to the Soviets? Working on a Hungarian PzKW 38(t), know about the change in mid / late 42. They also had another , VERY limited use one used in 40(?) on a few vehicles. Looked kind of like the pre war Lithuanian marking.
Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 05:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Some decal sheets and color profiles show the Bulgarian crosses in black, some green. Accurate? What reason? What time frame?
Bulgarian tanks are marked with St.Andrew's Cross between September and December 1944.
The cross is black, sometimes painted over white rectangle, but more often this white rectangle is omitted.
The cross is painted on various places-on the glacis,on the sides on top and on the back of turret.
There have never been green crosses-and if I remember correctly the author of the decal set that includes green crosses gives them under question mark.
HTH
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 05:10 PM UTC
Hungarian marking changed to Black square / white cross (officialy) in March 42 but was not widely adopted till early 43. http://thehonvedhungarianarmedforces.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-development-of-hungarian-military.html
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 05:18 PM UTC
Angel, I am working on a PzKw 38(t). I have read about the only active service the Bulgarian Army was involved in was occupation / anti partisan work in Yugoslavia. Would the crosses have been on vehicles there? (Decal sheet says the markings are from photos of a parade in Sofia.)
Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 05:38 PM UTC
Timothy,
If you mean Bulgarian Army operations between April 1941-September 1944, it is true. But, the ocupation and administration units didn't have any tanks at their disposal.
PzKw 38(t) or Praga's-as they were known here- took part in the fighting in Yugoslavia between September and December 1944.They formed 9th Armored Company of The Armoured Brigade and some(at least 7) were lost in a skirmish with a German(possibly) 8.8 Cm. Flak gun on September 17th in Vrdulinac area.
Praga's did not partiipate the second phase(1945) of Bulgarian Army's involvement in WWII, as they were deemed obsolete, thinly armored and not suitable for the battles to come.
So if you want to depict a Bulgarian PzKw 38(t) taking part in WWII, it should:
-be painted Dunkelgelb,
-must have turret number between 59 and 68 and
-registration number in the range В 60059-В 60068(turret number corresponds to last 2 digits of registration number)
HTH
If you mean Bulgarian Army operations between April 1941-September 1944, it is true. But, the ocupation and administration units didn't have any tanks at their disposal.
PzKw 38(t) or Praga's-as they were known here- took part in the fighting in Yugoslavia between September and December 1944.They formed 9th Armored Company of The Armoured Brigade and some(at least 7) were lost in a skirmish with a German(possibly) 8.8 Cm. Flak gun on September 17th in Vrdulinac area.
Praga's did not partiipate the second phase(1945) of Bulgarian Army's involvement in WWII, as they were deemed obsolete, thinly armored and not suitable for the battles to come.
So if you want to depict a Bulgarian PzKw 38(t) taking part in WWII, it should:
-be painted Dunkelgelb,
-must have turret number between 59 and 68 and
-registration number in the range В 60059-В 60068(turret number corresponds to last 2 digits of registration number)
HTH
deathdork
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 06:36 PM UTC
Are there any reasonably priced references on this subject?
Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 07:03 PM UTC
The Armoured Forces of the Bulgarian Army 1936-1945 by Kaloyan Matev is the best source on the subject.
Some pictures from it of Bulgarian Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) or Praga:
And here is my(unfinished)take on the subject:
HTH
Some pictures from it of Bulgarian Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) or Praga:
And here is my(unfinished)take on the subject:
HTH
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 07:15 PM UTC
Thank you Angel. Info on Eastern Europe stuff is sparce here. (Fall out from that Cold War stuff, I guess) I am surprised the occupation troops did not have some armor, like the Germans in Yugoslavia. (SS Prinz Eugene had a bunch of escapees from every military museum in Europe to deal with the partisans Pragas would have seemed modern for them) I knew the color would have been dunkelgelb the Pragas Bulgaria got were rebuilds. Something interesting I noticed on the decal sheet. It says the Pragas are "Romanian".Oops.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 07:27 PM UTC
Like the holes in the exhaust. What does the word over the cross on the turret say? Suggestion. Might want to dry brush the edges/ high spots with Dunkelgrau. Knowing that the were rebuilds and knowing the Germans were not big on "Customer Service" especially with Bulgaria. They screwed Bulgaria with other tank "orders" I'm sure the repaint was not the best.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 07:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
What does the word over the cross on the turret say?
Mitrovica (a city in Kosovo).
Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 07:39 PM UTC
Thanks!
The last two B&W pictures show the vehicle I modelled.
The inscription says Mitrovitza-a town in Yugoslavia-where the Armoured Brigade fought heavy battles.
The pictures are from December 2nd 1944 Parade in Sofia.
All participating tanks had inscription of city names, where battles were fought.
Bulgaria received Pz.Kpfw 38(t) as substitution for the contracted Pz.Kpfw.III, that were not delivered because the Wehrmacht needed them desparately.The batch consisted of various Ausf. types.
They were the most modern tanks Bulgarian Royal Army had till Pz.Kpfw.IV arrived.
The last two B&W pictures show the vehicle I modelled.
The inscription says Mitrovitza-a town in Yugoslavia-where the Armoured Brigade fought heavy battles.
The pictures are from December 2nd 1944 Parade in Sofia.
All participating tanks had inscription of city names, where battles were fought.
Bulgaria received Pz.Kpfw 38(t) as substitution for the contracted Pz.Kpfw.III, that were not delivered because the Wehrmacht needed them desparately.The batch consisted of various Ausf. types.
They were the most modern tanks Bulgarian Royal Army had till Pz.Kpfw.IV arrived.
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 09:02 PM UTC
Looks like you missed a hole. In the photo of the actual tank it looks like a rifle (mg) hole in the exhaust, just above the 6 and 2 om the plate. Thought on the white block behind the X on 59s turret. Supposedly it was a befehlspanzer. Could the white indicate a staff tank?
Posted: Saturday, September 08, 2018 - 11:56 PM UTC
Noted!Will add the missing hole
With regard to the #59 vehicle-among the delivered tanks there was one that used to be Befehlpanzer prior overhaul.But as delivered in Bulgaria,it lacked the required radio sets and could not be used as command tank.Not sure it was #59 tank though.And it cannot be guessed from this picture either-the ex Befehlpanzer lacked the hull MG and had it's opening covered by welded on round armour plate.
The rectangular white field was recognition marking used between September-December 1944.It was also painted on top of the turret, to "fend" friendly aircrafts off.
With regard to the #59 vehicle-among the delivered tanks there was one that used to be Befehlpanzer prior overhaul.But as delivered in Bulgaria,it lacked the required radio sets and could not be used as command tank.Not sure it was #59 tank though.And it cannot be guessed from this picture either-the ex Befehlpanzer lacked the hull MG and had it's opening covered by welded on round armour plate.
The rectangular white field was recognition marking used between September-December 1944.It was also painted on top of the turret, to "fend" friendly aircrafts off.
j76lr
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Posted: Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 12:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Armoured Forces of the Bulgarian Army 1936-1945 by Kaloyan Matev is the best source on the subject.
Some pictures from it of Bulgarian Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) or Praga:
And here is my(unfinished)take on the subject:
HTH
nice job ! love the exhaust !
Posted: Sunday, September 09, 2018 - 01:22 AM UTC
Thanks Lou,
This project is idling for more than 2 years now.Maybe it is the right time to finish it...
This project is idling for more than 2 years now.Maybe it is the right time to finish it...
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2018 - 01:05 PM UTC
Getting there on my Praga. Already caught a mistake. E/F kit has the smoke candle discharger on the back. Noticed in the photo it was not mounted... and I already put the decal of the vehicle number on. I noticed the Skoda tanks had air recognition markings. Did the Pragas? Lighting on the photos makes it hard to see.
Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2018 - 04:40 PM UTC
Timothy,
The white rectangular air recognition marking was present on every Bulgarian vehicle-be it a tank, car or truck.Here is an example:
The Praga had it:
I) on top of the turret(forward right part of turret roof plate)-same location as on the turret of Skoda tank left bottom, or
II) on top of the engine cowling behind the turret.
HTH
The white rectangular air recognition marking was present on every Bulgarian vehicle-be it a tank, car or truck.Here is an example:
The Praga had it:
I) on top of the turret(forward right part of turret roof plate)-same location as on the turret of Skoda tank left bottom, or
II) on top of the engine cowling behind the turret.
HTH
b2nhvi
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Posted: Saturday, October 13, 2018 - 07:11 PM UTC
Good thing I asked. I figured i would have been the St. Andrew's cross, like on Skoda 33, on the turret roof or engine deck.
jasegreene
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Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2018 - 12:25 AM UTC
Thanks for all of these great photos.For me,I enjoy the smaller,sometimes forgotten militaries of World War II.Also I sure love your work on your Panzer 38(t).It is a great build with some great weathering
Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2018 - 01:11 AM UTC
Timothy, glad to be of help!
Jason- thanks for your kind words.We are a small, but proud nation.Our Army almost never lost a battle, but our politicians never won a war.
Jason- thanks for your kind words.We are a small, but proud nation.Our Army almost never lost a battle, but our politicians never won a war.
Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2018 - 05:40 PM UTC
Timothy,
I found a table with description of Praga/Pz.Kpfw.38(t) in Bulgarian service:
As told earlier, #59 was supplied without hull MG, the opening was closed by round armor plate.It is highly probable that this vehicle was Befehlpanzer prior to sale connected overhaul.No radio sets were supplied with this particular tank, so there were no additional antenae mountings present either.
Hope this helps and doesn't come too late for your build,
I found a table with description of Praga/Pz.Kpfw.38(t) in Bulgarian service:
As told earlier, #59 was supplied without hull MG, the opening was closed by round armor plate.It is highly probable that this vehicle was Befehlpanzer prior to sale connected overhaul.No radio sets were supplied with this particular tank, so there were no additional antenae mountings present either.
Hope this helps and doesn't come too late for your build,
b2nhvi
Nevada, United States
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Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2018 - 10:34 PM UTC
Uh-oh...... Was doing 62. Kit is an Ausf E/F, 62 was a G. Gonna switch to 63.... and hope it was not one that ran into the 88s.
Posted: Sunday, October 14, 2018 - 10:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Uh-oh...... Was doing 62. Kit is an Ausf E/F, 62 was a G. Gonna switch to 63.... and hope it was not one that ran into the 88s.
Will not check that
Looking forward to see your vehicle finished!