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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Help with washes and filters please
TopSmith
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 - 06:08 AM UTC
I am in a campaign for procrastinators and time has gotten short. I am quickly getting to the edge of my expertise and don't want to muck it up. I have painted the kit with Life Color acrylics and want to do some filters and washes.
What thinner should I use?
What should I not do?
Which should come first the wash or the filter?
How do I keep the filter from damaging the wash?
Do I need to be applying clear something in the process somewhere?
Is there some critical point I should stop at or change what I am doing?

You can see why I was procrastinating and the thought of stripping the paint and starting over puts me in a fowl mood.

Thanks for any sound advice.

M4A3E8Easy8
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 - 06:51 AM UTC
Happy Thanksgiving Top. We need to know a few things. What type of paint are you going to use for the wash/filter? I am not a fan of any acrylic for a wash, enamels or oils with mineral spirits are my choice. Let me offer a few bits of advice from an old Navy CPO.

There is a sticky in this forum with tons of info on when and how to do what.

Second, I used to struggle with washes and never used filters.. then I watched a video about weathering and this guy was just slopping a wash all over and made a mess with a filter.. I was just shocked and how careless he was. Then he goes back with mineral spirits and cleans everything up.. looks great. You may know this guy as Mig. Just google Mig Jimenez weathering and chose one or two to watch.

I now put a future coat on all my stuff and relax * well try to anyway* and have at it. You can fix 99% of what you do and the other 1% well worst case is mud of toss a piece of gear over it.

Where are you at in Washington? I am up here just a bit north of Seattle.. for a little longer, then this Florida boy is heading back south.
TopSmith
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 - 10:08 AM UTC
Thanks. Was from Florida, now in Tacoma.
Namabiiru
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 - 10:18 AM UTC
I like to use artist oils for my washes and filters. Thin with artist's white spirits. Don't use turpentine--it's too aggressive and will eat the acrylics. Sometimes I seal the acrylics with future, but not always. As long as your thinner isn't too aggressive, it should be fine.

krow113
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 - 10:33 AM UTC
Always seal with gloss clear after each treatment or procedure. Thay way if you F it up you can clean off back to the last clear coat.
Always gloss too as flat will absorb pigment and you wont be able to fix it.
SSGToms
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 - 04:55 PM UTC
Top,
If you go through my sticky "Finishing and Weathering Sequence" at the top of the forum all will be revealed and all questions answered. It's pretty easy really; just follow the steps. If you get stuck, post a question.
Make sure you have an acrylic clear coat over the base paint before you start with the washes and filters. That way you don't have to strip the model.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2018 - 05:57 PM UTC
Greg,

1)Take a look at this 24 minute video, "5 Weathering Techniques for Beginners" by Panzermeister 36, It's the best short, down and dirty generic video I've seen for explaining what to do:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=top+5+weathering+techniques+for+beginner&view=detail&mid=E733570FF5FCEBA35357E733570FF5FCEBA35357&FORM=VIRE

2)Get over to Hobby Lobby in Tacoma or Lakewood, they have "Masters Touch" oil paint kits on sale right now at 50% off--you can get a set of 26 oil paints with brushes (crappy brushes), pencils, a rectangular mixing tray, and a nice wooden box (which can be used as a diorama base!). These are cheap oils, but they are all you need for washes and filters, and work great. At 50% off-- the set will cost you about $13.

3)Pick up some Dullcoat, some Testor's Airbrush Thinner,and some Weber's "Turpenoid Light" while you are there, and some good camel hair or soft nylon brushes (small square tip, small round tip are best) if you don't already have them.

4)Proceed as follows:

a) Watch the video again.
b) Dullcoat your Lifecolor (or other paint) completely (this is an important step) and let it dry 24 hours.
(c)Squeeze out some of the oils on a paper towel and let it sit a few hours (leeches out the linseed oil).
d) Follow the instructions in the video for pin washes, washes and filters. Use the Turpenoid Light for thinning and washing. Don't be alarmed if your finish fades or "frosts" a little as it dries.
e)Allow to dry for a day, then Dullcoat everything again. The Dullcoat will correct any "frosting" or fading if it occurs.

I like to decant my Dullcoat into my airbrush and thin it about 70% Dullcoat and 30% with Testor's "red can" airbrush thinner (comes in a pint sized red can). It just provides a smoother more controllable finish that way. Dullcoating protects the underlying paint from the otherwise mild "Turpenoid Light), and a second Dullcoat finish will seal in the wash/filter permanently. You can also go over the finish with a second coat of filter/dulcoat if you want to increase the effects.

Over on Missing Lynx is a tutorial by MIG, but it uses their products, which is fine, but frankly, you don't need to go to the expense of buying Mig products for good washes and filters. If you want, here's the link to the Missing Lynx article, but the Panzermeister video is easier to follow:

http://missing-lynx.com/rareworld.htm

Some folks swear that you can't use oils over flat finishes and recommend Future to seal in the base colors, but that's untrue--sometimes oils work best on flat finishes in washes, pin washes, and filters--watch the Panzermeister36 video and see.

Hope this helps.
VR, Russ


TopSmith
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2018 - 03:06 AM UTC
Thanks guys. This is where I always come when I hit a wall. Now it's up to a procrastinator to get the job done by Dec 31st. I will head to the store today.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2018 - 06:05 AM UTC
Greg, Using the video techniques, and the supplies I mentioned, I was able to finish a Sturmorser VI (Sturmtiger) with a pin-wash and filters in about four days-- so you should be able to make that December 31st deadline easily. What vehicle are you working on? That will make a difference in the colors you use. By the way, Masters Touch makes smaller sets of oils as well-- in the 10 and 18 paint set range. But at a minimum you'll need Burnt Umber, Naples Yellow, Cadmium Red, Ivory Black, Sienna, White, and maybe some shades of Green (depending on your vehicle color). The smaller Masters Touch sets don't always include those colors, so just buy the larger set of 26 colors, and you'll have all you need for any armor, aircraft, auto, or ship project, and at 50% off, you can't go wrong. There is another simple technique you can use to "fade" or "brighten" various areas of a vehicle to show wear and staining highlights as well, and the larger set of paints will give you more colors to choose from (the Masters Touch brushes that come with the 26 paint set are only good for mixing paint though-- they are far to stiff for anything else). MAKE SURE YOU BUY THE OIL SET! They make identical sets in Acrylics and water colors!
VR, Russ
TopSmith
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2018 - 10:37 AM UTC
Always nice to hear from you Russ. All advice is appreciated. I am doing a Panther F in a hard edge, three color pattern but not the ambush scheme. I will be going to hobby lobby today. I plan on clear coating and decaling today and tomorrow and weather starting next week.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2018 - 02:15 PM UTC
Greg,
In that case, since its German Armor, you'll be using the reds, yellows, brown and greens, maybe even some blue along with white and just a little black for the filters. I use the raw umber and burnt umber for pin washes, mixed at about 80% Turpenoid Light, and in some case for full washes. The other colors I use for filters. the Turpenoid takes about 24 hours to dry the oils (sometimes less), so I let everything dry out overnight before spraying the Dullcoat. I use the technique in the video, first a pin wash, then chipping, (Tamiya Hull red for German tanks), maybe followed by a wash in selected areas, followed by a Dullcoat, then do my filters, followed by a final Dullcoat. I was like you-- a little apprehensive at first, but I was really pleased with how easy it was to bring out the details and weathering in the finish using just these cheapo oils. I have some expensive Abteilung and Windsor and Newton oils, but frankly, I cant tell the difference between the really expensive stuff and the cheapo Master's Touch oils. And I can get 26 colors for the price of one or two of the expensive brands. I think you'll be pleased. Please post your work when you are finished!
VR, Russ
TopSmith
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2018 - 02:33 PM UTC
Will odorless mineral spirits work as well as the turp lite?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2018 - 02:46 PM UTC
Greg,
I'm not sure about odorless mineral spirits. I like the Turpenoid Light best, as it's pretty benign to just about any finish, yet great at thinning oils--it has a slightly oily feel to it, but it evaporates fairly fast (or is absorbed into the finish--I haven't figured out which--spilled on my glass-topped work bench it stays around for days if I don't clean it up, and takes several days to evaporate from mixed paint). But it leaves a flat finish on models in a few hours. I'd do a test with your base paint with OMS to be sure. I'm pretty sure OMS is ok for Dullcoat since Dullcoat is a lacquer, but you never know, so I'd test it with Dullcoat as well. It should be fine with the oils. I haven't had much luck with thinners over Future, as I've found mineral spirits, paint thinner and Testor's and Tamiya Yellow Cap proprietary thinner can soften the Future on occasion. If you can't access the Turpenoid Light, PM me-- I have a large bottle, and since we seem to be in the same area, maybe we can meet and I'll give you some to try.
VR, Russ
M4A3E8Easy8
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2018 - 07:13 AM UTC
I use oderless mineral spirits from the orange big box store. It is probably a little more agressive than turp light. It will remove tamiya enamels pretty easy but if you ask me water takes them off. Model Master enamels do better but will still lift if you work to long. I have never had it lift testors dull coat.
TopSmith
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2018 - 12:35 AM UTC
Thanks for the offer Russ but I don't live far from Michaels or Hobby L an I should just get a bottle for long-term use. The stash requires it.

Yep on the Dull Coat. I will link to the Campaign photos when I am done. Thanks again.
mogdude
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 - 04:14 PM UTC
[quote]Greg,

1)Take a look at this 24 minute video, "5 Weathering Techniques for Beginners" by Panzermeister 36, It's the best short, down and dirty generic video I've seen for explaining what to do:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=top+5+weathering+techniques+for+beginner&view=detail&mid=E733570FF5FCEBA35357E733570FF5FCEBA35357&FORM=VIRE

2)Get over to Hobby Lobby in Tacoma or Lakewood, they have "Masters Touch" oil paint kits on sale right now at 50% off--you can get a set of 26 oil paints with brushes (crappy brushes), pencils, a rectangular mixing tray, and a nice wooden box (which can be used as a diorama base!). These are cheap oils, but they are all you need for washes and filters, and work great. At 50% off-- the set will cost you about $13.

3)Pick up some Dullcoat, some Testor's Airbrush Thinner,and some Weber's "Turpenoid Light" while you are there, and some good camel hair or soft nylon brushes (small square tip, small round tip are best) if you don't already have them.

4)Proceed as follows:

a) Watch the video again.
b) Dullcoat your Lifecolor (or other paint) completely (this is an important step) and let it dry 24 hours.
(c)Squeeze out some of the oils on a paper towel and let it sit a few hours (leeches out the linseed oil).
d) Follow the instructions in the video for pin washes, washes and filters. Use the Turpenoid Light for thinning and washing. Don't be alarmed if your finish fades or "frosts" a little as it dries.
e)Allow to dry for a day, then Dullcoat everything again. The Dullcoat will correct any "frosting" or fading if it occurs.

I like to decant my Dullcoat into my airbrush and thin it about 70% Dullcoat and 30% with Testor's "red can" airbrush thinner (comes in a pint sized red can). It just provides a smoother more controllable finish that way. Dullcoating protects the underlying paint from the otherwise mild "Turpenoid Light), and a second Dullcoat finish will seal in the wash/filter permanently. You can also go over the finish with a second coat of filter/dulcoat if you want to increase the effects.

Over on Missing Lynx is a tutorial by MIG, but it uses their products, which is fine, but frankly, you don't need to go to the expense of buying Mig products for good washes and filters. If you want, here's the link to the Missing Lynx article, but the Panzermeister video is easier to follow:

http://missing-lynx.com/rareworld.htm

Some folks swear that you can't use oils over flat finishes and recommend Future to seal in the base colors, but that's untrue--sometimes oils work best on flat finishes in washes, pin washes, and filters--watch the Panzermeister36 video and see.

Hope this helps.
VR, Russ


Is that the enamal dull coat or lacquer or does it matter ?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2018 - 04:57 PM UTC
John,
Dullcoat is a lacquer-based flat clearcoat manufactured by Testor's. It comes in either a spray can or a paint bottle. The spray can is easier to find. I prefer to decant the spray can into a bottle, mix it with Testor's "red can" airbrush thinner and spray it through my airbrush. The Testor's thinner is actually an enamel thinner, but it mixes well with the Dullcoat. The spray can Dullcoat seems to have better ability to level out in a smooth thin finish than the bottled Dullcoat in my opinion.
VR, Russ
mogdude
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Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 - 02:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

John,
Dullcoat is a lacquer-based flat clearcoat manufactured by Testor's. It comes in either a spray can or a paint bottle. The spray can is easier to find. I prefer to decant the spray can into a bottle, mix it with Testor's "red can" airbrush thinner and spray it through my airbrush. The Testor's thinner is actually an enamel thinner, but it mixes well with the Dullcoat. The spray can Dullcoat seems to have better ability to level out in a smooth thin finish than the bottled Dullcoat in my opinion.
VR, Russ



Thanks much for the info , mixing the lt with the regular ab pt wold have been next question ,I saw a can of dullcoat listed under enamels on evilbay hence the question , but I didnt read the can label if I had I wouldnt have needed to ask the question senior moments got to love them
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2018 - 09:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

John,
Dullcoat is a lacquer-based flat clearcoat manufactured by Testor's. It comes in either a spray can or a paint bottle. The spray can is easier to find. I prefer to decant the spray can into a bottle, mix it with Testor's "red can" airbrush thinner and spray it through my airbrush. The Testor's thinner is actually an enamel thinner, but it mixes well with the Dullcoat. The spray can Dullcoat seems to have better ability to level out in a smooth thin finish than the bottled Dullcoat in my opinion.
VR, Russ



Thanks much for the info , mixing the lt with the regular ab pt wold have been next question ,I saw a can of dullcoat listed under enamels on evilbay hence the question , but I didnt read the can label if I had I wouldnt have needed to ask the question senior moments got to love them



Well John, I can relate to the senior moments for sure. I often start typing stuff here, and realize I'm totaly screwed up and have to revise my post to make sense. But on another note-- why are you buying this stuff on E-bay?-- you can get most of the supplies I mentioned at any good Hobby Shop, or you can buy it for cheap at Hobby Lobby (40% off coupon, which effectively cuts the price almost in half), Michael's (with a 25% coupon). Some good craft stores also carry Testor's products, and even some variety stores. I'd go there before paying the postage and handling for stuff like Dullcoat. of course there may be reasons you use E-bay, so forgive me if I'm screwed up here--chalk it up to another "senior moment"!
VR, Russ
mogdude
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Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2018 - 02:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

John,
Dullcoat is a lacquer-based flat clearcoat manufactured by Testor's. It comes in either a spray can or a paint bottle. The spray can is easier to find. I prefer to decant the spray can into a bottle, mix it with Testor's "red can" airbrush thinner and spray it through my airbrush. The Testor's thinner is actually an enamel thinner, but it mixes well with the Dullcoat. The spray can Dullcoat seems to have better ability to level out in a smooth thin finish than the bottled Dullcoat in my opinion.
VR, Russ


Thanks,but not buying it off ebay just looking at it to see what the product looks like thanks again for the info

Thanks much for the info , mixing the lt with the regular ab pt wold have been next question ,I saw a can of dullcoat listed under enamels on evilbay hence the question , but I didnt read the can label if I had I wouldnt have needed to ask the question senior moments got to love them



Well John, I can relate to the senior moments for sure. I often start typing stuff here, and realize I'm totaly screwed up and have to revise my post to make sense. But on another note-- why are you buying this stuff on E-bay?-- you can get most of the supplies I mentioned at any good Hobby Shop, or you can buy it for cheap at Hobby Lobby (40% off coupon, which effectively cuts the price almost in half), Michael's (with a 25% coupon). Some good craft stores also carry Testor's products, and even some variety stores. I'd go there before paying the postage and handling for stuff like Dullcoat. of course there may be reasons you use E-bay, so forgive me if I'm screwed up here--chalk it up to another "senior moment"!
VR, Russ

TopSmith
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Posted: Sunday, December 02, 2018 - 04:31 AM UTC
The time to dull coat is near. I have had problems in the past with decals and lacquer. In the past, I futured over the decals and sprayed Tamiya clear and still had some minor crinkling. What has been your experience?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, December 02, 2018 - 06:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The time to dull coat is near. I have had problems in the past with decals and lacquer. In the past, I futured over the decals and sprayed Tamiya clear and still had some minor crinkling. What has been your experience?



Greg, I've used Dullcoat right over decals with no problem, just start with a light coat, and give it a chance to dry. You can use future to topcoat the decals too, but I'd go light with that as well. Are you using an airbrush or Dullcoat out of the can? I prefer to decant Dullcoat into my AB for more control. I never use Tamiya clear over anything, but very occasionally I'll use Future to either provide a base or a sealing coat for decals. Lately, I've been using ALCLAD clear gloss though in place of Future-- I like the way it levels fast and dries quickly-- and since I also build aircraft, it can be sprayed right over clear parts without masking! I paint with Tamiya, MM and Mr. Color and occasionally Vallejo paints, and have Dullcoated over all of them with lots of decals (primarily for aircraft) and never had a problem with light coats of Dullcoat.
VR, Russ
TopSmith
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Posted: Sunday, December 02, 2018 - 05:03 PM UTC
Thanks Russ, I tighten my seat belt and get started.
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