Hey folks,
Quick question: Would Russian tanks (SU-85 and T-34/85 in particular) participating in the Battle of Berlin experience a substantial amount of weathering? I am currently building an old Tamiya SU-85 and have put white identification stripes on the hull sides. Did the vehicles who participated in the battle have time to accumulate a ton of dust/mud/scratches/oil spills etc. usually associated with tanks that have fought for quite a while? Or, would these tanks have weathered very little by the time they entered Berlin (assuming that they only fought for a short time).
TL DR: Did Russian tanks that fought in Berlin have time to get dirty/scratched up or should I keep my tank relatively pristine. Thank you!
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Question on SU-85s in the Battle for Berlin
kunjuro
Joined: October 27, 2013
KitMaker: 520 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 08:26 AM UTC
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 08:49 AM UTC
I would say yes,at least dust and dirt,rubble was abundant,how can you not avoid it.if it rained,at least some mud.Probably damage,probably not rust.
Doesn't take long to get dirty.
Doesn't take long to get dirty.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 10:19 AM UTC
Just a few Berlin period pics :
H.P.
H.P.
obg153
Joined: April 07, 2009
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,049 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 10:26 AM UTC
I agree with Anthony. Google photos of this battle and you'll see many huge mounds of rubble, lots of wrecked buildings, plus the Russians used large artillery pieces to blast their way thru the city. So yeah, a lot of grubby dirt, dust & scratches.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 12:55 PM UTC
Just to add to the good advice already stated, but tanks in an urban setting can take more of a beating than tanks in open country. Some tanks fighting in Berlin started the drive to Berlin on about April 16th, and were in combat for the better part of three weeks. Plenty of time to get beat up.
In that center picture of the T-34's. What is that guy pointing his pistol at?
In that center picture of the T-34's. What is that guy pointing his pistol at?
kunjuro
Joined: October 27, 2013
KitMaker: 520 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 06:07 PM UTC
Thanks for all the advice folks, especially for the photos Henri-Pierre posted. One last question: would brown mud be out of place for these tanks? Or should I focus on grey-ish dust tones from battered concrete etc.
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
KitMaker: 279 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2018 - 09:35 PM UTC
See, the thing is they all look remarkably clean to me. Certainly no rusting, although they would be dusty, presumably concrete or brick colour. Gets back to my suspicion that we collectively tend to over weather our vehicles.
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
Armorama: 1,226 posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 12:54 AM UTC
The original SU-85 was introduced in 1943. Assuming it survived that long, it would been bent and battered. Have fun!
Regards,
Marc
Regards,
Marc
Floridabucco
Joined: September 27, 2016
KitMaker: 117 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2018 - 01:42 AM UTC
Yes Norman, I agree with you 100% that we over weather our tanks etc., especially late war German armor, as they did not survive long enough to get very weathered.
I read in a book one time, that I believe after the Normandy invasion, the average German vehicle did not last longer than 3 weeks in combat. They were destroyed from the air, other Allied ground units, or simply ran out of fuel and either blown up by their crews, or simply abandoned.
I read in a book one time, that I believe after the Normandy invasion, the average German vehicle did not last longer than 3 weeks in combat. They were destroyed from the air, other Allied ground units, or simply ran out of fuel and either blown up by their crews, or simply abandoned.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 - 12:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey folks,
Quick question: Would Russian tanks (SU-85 and T-34/85 in particular) participating in the Battle of Berlin experience a substantial amount of weathering? I am currently building an old Tamiya SU-85 and have put white identification stripes on the hull sides. Did the vehicles who participated in the battle have time to accumulate a ton of dust/mud/scratches/oil spills etc. usually associated with tanks that have fought for quite a while? Or, would these tanks have weathered very little by the time they entered Berlin (assuming that they only fought for a short time).
TL DR: Did Russian tanks that fought in Berlin have time to get dirty/scratched up or should I keep my tank relatively pristine. Thank you!
Berlin was pounded relentlessly by artillery, blasting thousands of buildings into rubble, and releasing immense amounts of cement dust as mortar joints shattered. Have you ever visited a building demolition site? Gray dust is everywhere. While I agree that weathering of paint finishes on models is overdone (color modulation is mostly nonsense--you rarely see it on real paint finishes unless they are decades old, and never in the patterns favored by the Spanish School of weathering), but a tank can get absolutely filthy in an afternoon.
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
KitMaker: 279 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 - 01:04 PM UTC
Absolutely agree, but my point was they won't get rusty or stonechipped to the extent we tend to see.
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 938 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 - 07:47 PM UTC
Contemporary accounts of the battle of Berlin refer to the soil in the area being sandy so while the vehicles assaulting the Seelowe Heights were ploughing though the muddy valley, by the time they reached the city the mud would be less prominent.
As Gerald says, bombing and shelling an urban environment produces huge quantities of dust and again, contemporary accounts describe everything as grey.
So plenty of opportunity for weathering, just maybe more depositional than erosional. Photographs (of actual tanks, not other people’s models) are your best guide. Fortunately they are pretty widespread, particularly of Soviet armour.
As Gerald says, bombing and shelling an urban environment produces huge quantities of dust and again, contemporary accounts describe everything as grey.
So plenty of opportunity for weathering, just maybe more depositional than erosional. Photographs (of actual tanks, not other people’s models) are your best guide. Fortunately they are pretty widespread, particularly of Soviet armour.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 25, 2018 - 10:39 PM UTC
Demolition sites are filthy grey holes. Streets would be pounded to dusty gravel by hard shelling so there would be dirt and dust everywhere. And if there had been any rain or water run off from broken mains? There would be water filled mud holes.
A fifteen minute drive across a gravel and dust surface will leave a lovely coat of sandy-grey dust all over.
And all you need is one mud filled hole for a spray of gunk on the side. I see contractor trucks all day that ride along ruined roads in industrial sites and they are filthy. If things are so clean in urban settings why would you ever need to wash your car?
A fifteen minute drive across a gravel and dust surface will leave a lovely coat of sandy-grey dust all over.
And all you need is one mud filled hole for a spray of gunk on the side. I see contractor trucks all day that ride along ruined roads in industrial sites and they are filthy. If things are so clean in urban settings why would you ever need to wash your car?
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