I am looking to buy my 2nd AB for doing (fine) detail work. I currently have a Patriot 105, which has been great as a starter AB. It's great for general purpose, but even with the fine detail needle assembly isn't the greatest.
Right now all I do is German AFV in 1:35. Getting more in to doing 3-tone camo, I haven't even tried any of the more complicated patterns yet.
It looks like Badger will be holding another birthday sale on their AB's, so I am keeping that door open.
Originally I was leaning towards the Iwata HP-CS to handle the fine detail work. I rarely ever see anyone complaining about this AB when it comes to performance.
I am looking for folks experience with the Iwata vs. what you feel is a comparable AB from Badger.
I asked the same on a FB page and received the following input.
"the Krome. Sprays better than the CS for sure. Sprays better than my HP-C+ and B. Some users here have even sold their Custom Microns after getting a Krome.
The Sotar was designed to compete with the CM series and the Krome is mechanically the exact same as the Sotar just in a traditional airbrush size."
Looking to get some more input from those experienced with both, or other comparable AB's.
Thanks for looking.
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Badger vs. Iwata for Detail
Whiskeypete
Joined: January 21, 2017
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 8 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 09:41 AM UTC
PRH001
Joined: June 16, 2014
KitMaker: 681 posts
Armorama: 603 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 12:04 PM UTC
The Iwata HP-CS is a fine Airbrush. It will probably do fine working in 1/35 scale for camouflage and the like. It is robust and simple. The Krome and Sotar were designed as more detail oriented brushes and will spray finer lines with paint properly thinned and at a lower lower air pressures than the HP-CS. Because of this, they have the potential to generate less overspray. I said potential because it takes trial and error with the paints you prefer to use to get the correct air pressure/ paint viscosity ratio for top performance. The Iwata will be less fussy over paint thinning because the tip is a .35mm vs the .21mm tips commonly used on the Badger brushes, but the Iwata will always need more air pressure because of the head design.
I’ve sprayed with the Iwata Eclipse series ( more than just the HP-CS)and with the Krome and Sotar for years. The Iwata will have a nicer finish and a higher price. The Badgers will be well finished, but not jewel like, and will do anything the Iwata can if you learn to use them. They will also have needle stops that the Iwata doesn’t have without buying additional parts.
As for someone selling an Iwata Micron and replacing it with a Sotar or a Krome, it may be that someone felt justified in doing that, but I certainly wouldn’t make that choice based on performance alone. The Badgers are very fine airbrushes, but they are not at the same level as the Micron when it comes to trigger control or atomization. In my opinion, the Sotar or Krome perform at about 90 percent of the level of the Micron, and are a great value for money. Some will take that level of performance and pocket the additional money they saved. Others will gladly give 4 times more money for that last 10 percent of performance.
Hope this info helps,
Paul H
I’ve sprayed with the Iwata Eclipse series ( more than just the HP-CS)and with the Krome and Sotar for years. The Iwata will have a nicer finish and a higher price. The Badgers will be well finished, but not jewel like, and will do anything the Iwata can if you learn to use them. They will also have needle stops that the Iwata doesn’t have without buying additional parts.
As for someone selling an Iwata Micron and replacing it with a Sotar or a Krome, it may be that someone felt justified in doing that, but I certainly wouldn’t make that choice based on performance alone. The Badgers are very fine airbrushes, but they are not at the same level as the Micron when it comes to trigger control or atomization. In my opinion, the Sotar or Krome perform at about 90 percent of the level of the Micron, and are a great value for money. Some will take that level of performance and pocket the additional money they saved. Others will gladly give 4 times more money for that last 10 percent of performance.
Hope this info helps,
Paul H
ctkwok
Joined: May 21, 2018
KitMaker: 197 posts
Armorama: 183 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 01:02 PM UTC
I owned a sotar for a year before ditching it for a custom micron. I personally find that the CM is better built and offered me better control. And I bought the Sotar on a lot of research and ended up disappointed. But obviously there are a lot of people who like it. Perhaps the Krome was their answer to Sotar's build quality issue but I don't have one.
I'm sure if you go to a pro-badger and pro-iwata forum you see people ditching brands one way or another . You probably can't go wrong with either until you put in some amount of work and see if you can work around the idiosyncrasies of each. If the brush doesn't work you can always sell it.
I'm sure if you go to a pro-badger and pro-iwata forum you see people ditching brands one way or another . You probably can't go wrong with either until you put in some amount of work and see if you can work around the idiosyncrasies of each. If the brush doesn't work you can always sell it.
Removed by original poster on 12/31/18 - 16:02:15 (GMT).
Whiskeypete
Joined: January 21, 2017
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 8 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 04:04 AM UTC
This most definitely helps. This is the type of feedback I am looking for. There are far more people with real and practical experience here than I have, so this is my aim. To learn from you and hopefully in time I can add the same value for someone else. Thanks
Cody K -
i asked the same question on one of the FB modelers pages, so there is no heavy bias to either AB company. One can't make an educated decision, when they are being sold by 'fanboys' of company A or B. The one response I received imo was an objective opinion, based on that users experiences. The same as what Paul provided here also.
Cody K -
i asked the same question on one of the FB modelers pages, so there is no heavy bias to either AB company. One can't make an educated decision, when they are being sold by 'fanboys' of company A or B. The one response I received imo was an objective opinion, based on that users experiences. The same as what Paul provided here also.
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 04:43 AM UTC
Paul is correct about the airbrush. The real issue people need when moving to a fine line airbrush is experience. I bought a really good airbrush and wanted a hard line three color camo job with no overspray. What I discovered after properly thinning the paint and lowering the pressure was the paint was not opaque enough to cover in one coat. My hand/eye was not good enough yet to retrace those same lines exactly again so I hand brushed the next coat. A great airbrush you think will solve a host of issues, Instead, it brings a new level of complexity.
Whiskeypete
Joined: January 21, 2017
KitMaker: 8 posts
Armorama: 8 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 05:26 AM UTC
thanks Greg
great point, which I had been wondering about. You clarified that for me. Any tool is only as good as the user. Thanks
The issue I have with the Patriot 105, is even with the .3 detail needle it won't consistently lay down a small, tight clean line. I have messed around with paint/thinner consistency and psi endlessly. The consistency in the tool imo just isn't there, to create fine detail each and every time.
I mask off and use Blu-Tak to do the 3-tone at this point. I don't have the hand or tool to freehand it. My goal is to be able to freehand the camo at some point, but I need a tool will allow me to do so.
great point, which I had been wondering about. You clarified that for me. Any tool is only as good as the user. Thanks
The issue I have with the Patriot 105, is even with the .3 detail needle it won't consistently lay down a small, tight clean line. I have messed around with paint/thinner consistency and psi endlessly. The consistency in the tool imo just isn't there, to create fine detail each and every time.
I mask off and use Blu-Tak to do the 3-tone at this point. I don't have the hand or tool to freehand it. My goal is to be able to freehand the camo at some point, but I need a tool will allow me to do so.
PRH001
Joined: June 16, 2014
KitMaker: 681 posts
Armorama: 603 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 07:13 AM UTC
Chris,
Airbrushing fine, consistent lines is a highly perishable skill. You have to practice and keep practicing to do it well with a double action brush. There are people who can legitimately freehand camouflage patterns with tight demarcation lines and perfect blends into the pattern, but I’ve found those people are few and far between. They usually do camouflage often and usually use the same or very similar patterns using colors with tried and true paint mixes they’ve developed over years and at pressures that suit their work.
Different colors from the same paint manufacturer can require different thinning ratios and will spray differently depending on humidity or temperature. This means that even if you know color X sprays well with a 50/50 thinning ratio in North Carolina, it may spray like crap in west Texas through the same airbrush at the same pressure on the same day. That’s why you should take what you hear about airbrushing with a grain of salt, and test everything yourself.
I have collected airbrushes for over 30 years and use them constantly, but I can tell you that I mask when it makes sense to mask and freehand when that does. The airbrush is just another tool. Practice, familiarity and usage will increase your performance, as will taking notes on your mixes and pressures. Whichever way you decide to go in your airbrush choice you won’t make a bad decision. A well made tool is always a good investment since they are pleasure to use each time you take it in hand.
Cheers,
Paul H
Airbrushing fine, consistent lines is a highly perishable skill. You have to practice and keep practicing to do it well with a double action brush. There are people who can legitimately freehand camouflage patterns with tight demarcation lines and perfect blends into the pattern, but I’ve found those people are few and far between. They usually do camouflage often and usually use the same or very similar patterns using colors with tried and true paint mixes they’ve developed over years and at pressures that suit their work.
Different colors from the same paint manufacturer can require different thinning ratios and will spray differently depending on humidity or temperature. This means that even if you know color X sprays well with a 50/50 thinning ratio in North Carolina, it may spray like crap in west Texas through the same airbrush at the same pressure on the same day. That’s why you should take what you hear about airbrushing with a grain of salt, and test everything yourself.
I have collected airbrushes for over 30 years and use them constantly, but I can tell you that I mask when it makes sense to mask and freehand when that does. The airbrush is just another tool. Practice, familiarity and usage will increase your performance, as will taking notes on your mixes and pressures. Whichever way you decide to go in your airbrush choice you won’t make a bad decision. A well made tool is always a good investment since they are pleasure to use each time you take it in hand.
Cheers,
Paul H
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 09:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I owned a sotar for a year before ditching it for a custom micron. I personally find that the CM is better built and offered me better control. And I bought the Sotar on a lot of research and ended up disappointed. But obviously there are a lot of people who like it. Perhaps the Krome was their answer to Sotar's build quality issue but I don't have one.
I'm sure if you go to a pro-badger and pro-iwata forum you see people ditching brands one way or another . You probably can't go wrong with either until you put in some amount of work and see if you can work around the idiosyncrasies of each. If the brush doesn't work you can always sell it.
In this case, you get what you pay for. The Sotar will run you about $120, while the CM is closer to $450.
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 02:16 PM UTC
The last 10% increase in performance is the most expensive. It works that way for racecars, aluminum bats, tennis rackets, yachts, and even airbrushes.
ctkwok
Joined: May 21, 2018
KitMaker: 197 posts
Armorama: 183 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 05:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI owned a sotar for a year before ditching it for a custom micron. I personally find that the CM is better built and offered me better control. And I bought the Sotar on a lot of research and ended up disappointed. But obviously there are a lot of people who like it. Perhaps the Krome was their answer to Sotar's build quality issue but I don't have one.
I'm sure if you go to a pro-badger and pro-iwata forum you see people ditching brands one way or another . You probably can't go wrong with either until you put in some amount of work and see if you can work around the idiosyncrasies of each. If the brush doesn't work you can always sell it.
In this case, you get what you pay for. The Sotar will run you about $120, while the CM is closer to $450.
I paid half of that, but the context was about someone claiming they did not get what they paid for and I was just responding to that.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 08:31 PM UTC
You know what? I've been using my three (3) PAASCHE H-1s and my BADGER 200 and BADGER 200G (Gravity-feed) airbrushes since my early teens. I'll be 66 next month. I use my BADGER 200G for my fine-detail work, such as duplicating the extra-fine mottling-effects on my 1/48 German aircraft, with EXCELLENT results. All of my airbrushes are SINGLE-ACTION instruments. I've tried some of the ridiculously-expensive dual-action airbrushes that you guys have mentioned above, and I've mastered them, but I can see NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE in their performance vs my old "stand-bys"... How IS that, anyway? Experience, PROPER paint-thinning, PROPER paint/air needle-adjustments and PROPER air pressures. My airbrushes cost me a MERE FRACTION of what kind of money you guys are willing to spend on your "high-dollar-rip-off" airbrushes...
I wound up selling my IWATAs to guys that thought that they couldn't do without them...
I wound up selling my IWATAs to guys that thought that they couldn't do without them...
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, December 31, 2018 - 09:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI owned a sotar for a year before ditching it for a custom micron. I personally find that the CM is better built and offered me better control. And I bought the Sotar on a lot of research and ended up disappointed. But obviously there are a lot of people who like it. Perhaps the Krome was their answer to Sotar's build quality issue but I don't have one.
I'm sure if you go to a pro-badger and pro-iwata forum you see people ditching brands one way or another . You probably can't go wrong with either until you put in some amount of work and see if you can work around the idiosyncrasies of each. If the brush doesn't work you can always sell it.
In this case, you get what you pay for. The Sotar will run you about $120, while the CM is closer to $450.
I paid half of that, but the context was about someone claiming they did not get what they paid for and I was just responding to that.
Where did you find one that cheap?
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2019 - 08:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You know what? I've been using my three (3) PAASCHE H-1s and my BADGER 200 and BADGER 200G (Gravity-feed) airbrushes since my early teens. I'll be 66 next month. I use my BADGER 200G for my fine-detail work, such as duplicating the extra-fine mottling-effects on my 1/48 German aircraft, with EXCELLENT results. All of my airbrushes are SINGLE-ACTION instruments. I've tried some of the ridiculously-expensive dual-action airbrushes that you guys have mentioned above, and I've mastered them, but I can see NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE in their performance vs my old "stand-bys"... How IS that, anyway? Experience, PROPER paint-thinning, PROPER paint/air needle-adjustments and PROPER air pressures. My airbrushes cost me a MERE FRACTION of what kind of money you guys are willing to spend on your "high-dollar-rip-off" airbrushes...
I wound up selling my IWATAs to guys that thought that they couldn't do without them...
I too had a Badger 200 I used for 20 years. It did everything I asked of it. I would still recommend it to anyone looking for an airbrush in that price range. Over time I upgraded my equipment. Mostly I was happy but like you, sometimes it was no better. I started with Propel cans as a kid. I tried inflated tires to save money. It did that but was not any better to work with. I now had it spitting water. I spent more money and moved up to a Badger diaphragm air compressor. It would always provide the constant airflow but still spit water and it was now louder than the can or tire. No late night painting. I was at an auction and bought a regulator and nitrogen tank for 30$. By using compressed gas I eliminated my spitting water and it was quiet so I could paint anytime. So I went full circle. I started with a can of compressed air and ended up back where I started with basically an overgrown can of compressed air. However, I did learn a lot through the process and am happy where I am. My tank lasts almost 2 years and only costs $20 something to refill. My airbrush adventures were similar but I ended up with an Iwata Hi-Line with the Mac valve. I personally like the mac valve and use it frequently. That was the feature the sold me on that brush. I agree that 97% of the work I do could be done with the Badger 200 and I could live with not having as good of results on the last 3 %. I have found the higher performance the brush the more you have to learn and the higher the skill level you need to get the most out of it. Buying a high tech airbrush when you are first starting is not the panacea that novices think it is. It will not produce the amazing paint jobs they expect until they have spent a lot of time learning how to airbrush. They will probably be more frustrated with it than if they had bought a good basic airbrush.
CMOT
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2019 - 09:34 PM UTC
I feel Badger offers longevity and high performance. One of the Badger airbrushes I have is working just as it 36 years ago when I was given it for my birthday.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2019 - 09:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextYou know what? I've been using my three (3) PAASCHE H-1s and my BADGER 200 and BADGER 200G (Gravity-feed) airbrushes since my early teens. I'll be 66 next month. I use my BADGER 200G for my fine-detail work, such as duplicating the extra-fine mottling-effects on my 1/48 German aircraft, with EXCELLENT results. All of my airbrushes are SINGLE-ACTION instruments. I've tried some of the ridiculously-expensive dual-action airbrushes that you guys have mentioned above, and I've mastered them, but I can see NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE in their performance vs my old "stand-bys"... How IS that, anyway? Experience, PROPER paint-thinning, PROPER paint/air needle-adjustments and PROPER air pressures. My airbrushes cost me a MERE FRACTION of what kind of money you guys are willing to spend on your "high-dollar-rip-off" airbrushes...
I wound up selling my IWATAs to guys that thought that they couldn't do without them...
I too had a Badger 200 I used for 20 years. It did everything I asked of it. I would still recommend it to anyone looking for an airbrush in that price range. Over time I upgraded my equipment. Mostly I was happy but like you sometimes It was no better. I started with Propel cans as a kid. I tried inflated tires to save money. It did that but was not any better to work with. I now had it spitting water. I spent more money and moved up to a Badger diaphragm air compressor. It would always provide the constant airflow but still spit water and it was now louder than the can or tire. No late night painting. I was at an auction and bought a regulator and nitrogen tank for 30$. By using compressed gas I eliminated my spitting water and it was quiet so I could paint anytime. So I went full circle. I started with a can of compressed air and ended up back where I started with basically an overgrown can of compressed air. However, I did learn a lot through the process and am happy where I am. My tank lasts almost 2 years and only costs $20 something to refill. My airbrush adventures were similar but I ended up with an Iwata Hi-Line with the Mac valve. I personally like the mac valve and use it frequently. That was the feature the sold me on that brush. I agree that 97% of the work I do could be done with the Badger 200 and I could live with not having as good of results on the last 3 %. I have found the higher performance the brush the more you have to learn and the higher the skill level you need to get the most out of it. Buying a high tech airbrush when you are first starting is not the panacea that novices think it is. It will not produce the amazing paint jobs they expect until they have spent a lot of time learning how to airbrush. They will probably be more frustrated with it than if they had bought a good basic airbrush.
HI!
I went through that whole rigamarole too, except I invested in "in-line" Water Traps and 2 Air compressors with Air Tanks and Integral Air-Pressure Gauges and Regulators. Water Traps are also mounted at the bottom of the Air Gauge/Regulator set-ups. Best investments that I ever made as far as my painting equipment is concerned.
I'm trying to get the idea across to people, as I've done in my earlier posts in years past, that one doesn't need to spend hundreds and hundreds of hard-earned dollars on fancy-pants airbrushes, when all one needs to do is EXPERIMENT with your existing equipment in order to get the desired results.
Try different consistencies in your paints, i.e, more or less thinners, regulate your air-pressures, and adjust your paint/air needles in your airbrushes. THAT is what the air/paint needles ARE FOR...
Now THIS is for anyone who has been thinking about investing in one of those "rip-off"/ over-priced/ Asian-Hollywood jewelry piece airbrushes. Take an old bomb of a model in your old "junk pile" of models that you're not satisfied with, and EXPERIMENT ON IT... You'd be surprised at how many things that you can come up with while experimenting with your "old-and-inferior" airbrushes.
FIVE THINGS TO REMEMBER:
1. A CLEAN Airbrush
2. Paint Consistency (thinness/thickness)
3. Air Pressures
4. Needle Adjustments
5. If you don't already have Water-Traps in your painting system, GET 'EM...
OK, now THIS is pretty elementary... First, give your airbrushes a good cleaning- Don't just shoot some thinners through your airbrush(es). Many modelers get impatient when they are doing routine maintenance on their painting equipment because they are in a tizzy to get started on their newest build. Many of these same guys will just shoot a little bit of thinners through their airbrushes when switching to a different color, because they're SO anxious to get the job done. Ofttimes, with disastrous results. They will then post a bleating "What should I do?" on Armorama, or Cybermodeler, or Hyperscale, etc. How may times has everyone read that kind of post on the various modeler sites? Mmm-Hmmm...
With me, just shooting thinners through an airbrush between color changes is a definite "NO-NO"...
BREAK YOUR AIRBRUSH DOWN into little bitty pieces, and soak the parts in some pretty strong thinners over-night. (Use your paint manufacturers' airbrush thinners) If your're cleaning more than one airbrush at a time, then KEEP THE PARTS of your DIFFERENT airbrushes IN SEPARATE CONTAINERS. This probably sounds like a "DUH!"-statement, but even the best modelers in the world make mistakes. The BEST way to prevent this from happening is to break your airbrushes down ONE AT A TIME. It's "dumbed-down" but it works! You'd be surprised at how many modelers don't take the time to properly clean their airbrushes, EVER!!!
Personally, I like to BREAK DOWN and CLEAN whichever airbrush that I'm using at that particular time, between color changes. I then do a "quickie-clean" of the parts. Beive me, it doesn't take long. I've RARELY spent more time than 5 minutes on one of my "quickie-cleans". This may seem like a waste of time to some of you guys, but let me tell you this:
"A CLEAN AIRBRUSH MAKES FOR A HAPPY MODELER..."
I usually have my other airbrushes ready to go for my second, third, and fourth paint applications, so my time-loss is at a minimum. Besides, one needs to WAIT for paint to dry properly between color-changes anyway. I have one of my PAASCHE H-1s set aside to shoot NOTHING BUT METALIZER Lacquers and Metallics through it. I learned my lesson over that a looong time ago.
Questions? Feel free to ask...
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