Hello there
As per the heading, I have some questions regarding Churchills, specifically Churchill IVs of 107 RAC.
Does anyone know of any decals for this formation (1/35th)? Google has turned up nothing I'm afraid
All sets I have seen (in any scale) have 107 RAC as the senior unit within 34th Tank Bde. Is that purely based on the number (ie 107 is lower than 147 and 153)? The same thing applies to the Histoire and Collection books on British Armour and the two volume "Tommy of the Liberation" set. The War Diary of the brigade gives a different order, and has 107 RAC as the second unit, with 157 as their number (ref is WO 171/643) and 147 RAC as the senior unit. So are the decal sets and books all wrong?
The War Diary also mentions the painting of aerial recognition stars are to be painted "on the largest horizontal or near horizontal surface of each armoured vehicle". So in the case of the Churchill IV, the turret roof? Or the engine deck?
The telephone box on the hull rear.... I'd like a photo of the inside of the box if possible, and something indicating where the cable entered the hull. Again, Google hasn't turned up a anything.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Cheers
Sean
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Churchill questions
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
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Posted: Sunday, February 03, 2019 - 11:12 PM UTC
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 04, 2019 - 12:36 AM UTC
Sean,
This is tricky; one would expect the order of precedence to be:
Senior Regiment 147 Regt or 153 Regt as their antecedent regiments were both formed in 1881 (I can't determine which was formed first - or perhaps they were both formed at the same time)
followed by 107 Regt as they were a Territorial Army unit and Regular Army units (ie the other 2) always take precedence over TA.
However, this is clearly not the case. perhaps the War Office were, during WW2, actually "tidy" and the numbering precedence would be just that, 107, 147 then 153; God knows there were other things to think about but perhaps some Staff Officer in the War office was just being logical.
As you note though the War Diary claims differently, and even though such diaries were often maintained in fraught and trying circumstances, it is unlikely to be wrong.
So, I'm not much help here I'm afraid.
However, on a more useful note Accurate Armour do a set of decals called British Brigades NW Europe which includes 34 Bde. They also produce a set with the tactical markings in the requisite colours.
I would have thought the most logical place on a Churchill for an aerial recognition sign would be the turret roof, if only because the hull would in as any campaign progressed, attract clutter and stowage.
Brian
This is tricky; one would expect the order of precedence to be:
Senior Regiment 147 Regt or 153 Regt as their antecedent regiments were both formed in 1881 (I can't determine which was formed first - or perhaps they were both formed at the same time)
followed by 107 Regt as they were a Territorial Army unit and Regular Army units (ie the other 2) always take precedence over TA.
However, this is clearly not the case. perhaps the War Office were, during WW2, actually "tidy" and the numbering precedence would be just that, 107, 147 then 153; God knows there were other things to think about but perhaps some Staff Officer in the War office was just being logical.
As you note though the War Diary claims differently, and even though such diaries were often maintained in fraught and trying circumstances, it is unlikely to be wrong.
So, I'm not much help here I'm afraid.
However, on a more useful note Accurate Armour do a set of decals called British Brigades NW Europe which includes 34 Bde. They also produce a set with the tactical markings in the requisite colours.
I would have thought the most logical place on a Churchill for an aerial recognition sign would be the turret roof, if only because the hull would in as any campaign progressed, attract clutter and stowage.
Brian
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 04, 2019 - 01:31 AM UTC
Thanks Brian
The War Diary entry is from 16th of June, ie when the Brigade were still in England, so in almost as calm a circumstance as any at that time.
I would think that the confusion has come from others (post war) "tidying" the numbers.
As an aside, there are some good bits of film in the IWMs collection, captioned as 107 RAC and clearly showing the "157" marking from early August.
Re Accurate Armour… thanks. I don't know why I didn't think of them myself.
For info, if anyone's interested, here are the relevant pages:
Cheers
Sean
The War Diary entry is from 16th of June, ie when the Brigade were still in England, so in almost as calm a circumstance as any at that time.
I would think that the confusion has come from others (post war) "tidying" the numbers.
As an aside, there are some good bits of film in the IWMs collection, captioned as 107 RAC and clearly showing the "157" marking from early August.
Re Accurate Armour… thanks. I don't know why I didn't think of them myself.
For info, if anyone's interested, here are the relevant pages:
Cheers
Sean
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 04, 2019 - 04:41 AM UTC
The turret roof was certainly used by some Churchill units as there is a photo of an AVRE which fell off the roof of one of the reserve magazines of Batterie Lindemann at Sangatte which showed it there as I recall.
There are various publications which list regiments in order of precedence but I’m away currently so can’t consult any of mine.
There are various publications which list regiments in order of precedence but I’m away currently so can’t consult any of mine.
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 04, 2019 - 04:53 AM UTC
Sean,
Well, for me that just about clinches it: Appendix G to Brigade HQ Standing Operating Instructions, signed off by the Brigade Major - the senior Staff Officer within any Brigade HQ and meticulous sticklers for detail - has got to be correct I reckon. Everyone else, mainly post war book publishers have gone for numerical convenience I would say - which in their defence - would appear logical but something the British Army is not renowned for!
Because this piqued my interest so, I've ordered a history of 34 Bde off Amazon; hopefully it should turn up this week and also, hopefully again, there will be something pertinent within.
Brian
Well, for me that just about clinches it: Appendix G to Brigade HQ Standing Operating Instructions, signed off by the Brigade Major - the senior Staff Officer within any Brigade HQ and meticulous sticklers for detail - has got to be correct I reckon. Everyone else, mainly post war book publishers have gone for numerical convenience I would say - which in their defence - would appear logical but something the British Army is not renowned for!
Because this piqued my interest so, I've ordered a history of 34 Bde off Amazon; hopefully it should turn up this week and also, hopefully again, there will be something pertinent within.
Brian
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
Armorama: 965 posts
Posted: Monday, February 04, 2019 - 05:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sean,
Well, for me that just about clinches it: Appendix G to Brigade HQ Standing Operating Instructions, signed off by the Brigade Major - the senior Staff Officer within any Brigade HQ and meticulous sticklers for detail - has got to be correct I reckon. Everyone else, mainly post war book publishers have gone for numerical convenience I would say - which in their defence - would appear logical but something the British Army is not renowned for!
Because this piqued my interest so, I've ordered a history of 34 Bde off Amazon; hopefully it should turn up this week and also, hopefully again, there will be something pertinent within.
Brian
Sean,
Further to my last, thinking about it, Brigade SOIs are about as authoritative as it gets. These were drafted and promulgated as you point out in the relative peace and calm prior to the Bde joining the invasion of Europe.
Incidentally, a War Diary proper is a logbook opened once battle is joined, and then of course is as only as accurate as the author (which may be many) can be in very demanding and trying circumstances; but a Bde HQ document as about the most accurate source there is.
Brian
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 04, 2019 - 07:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextSean,
Well, for me that just about clinches it: Appendix G to Brigade HQ Standing Operating Instructions, signed off by the Brigade Major - the senior Staff Officer within any Brigade HQ and meticulous sticklers for detail - has got to be correct I reckon. Everyone else, mainly post war book publishers have gone for numerical convenience I would say - which in their defence - would appear logical but something the British Army is not renowned for!
Because this piqued my interest so, I've ordered a history of 34 Bde off Amazon; hopefully it should turn up this week and also, hopefully again, there will be something pertinent within.
Brian
Sean,
Further to my last, thinking about it, Brigade SOIs are about as authoritative as it gets. These were drafted and promulgated as you point out in the relative peace and calm prior to the Bde joining the invasion of Europe.
Incidentally, a War Diary proper is a logbook opened once battle is joined, and then of course is as only as accurate as the author (which may be many) can be in very demanding and trying circumstances; but a Bde HQ document as about the most accurate source there is.
Brian
Sean,
I realise I may be teaching you to suck eggs here - I'm sure you're well aware of what a War Diary is - apologies for sounding so pompous(!)
Brian
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 04, 2019 - 08:23 AM UTC
Robert
Thanks. I think I'll go with that as it does make sense.
Brian
No problem
I should have used the correct terminology myself. This was within the War Diary file, but as you say, isn't really a War Diary entry.
They do vary in content as you know. Some have masses of "extras", some are written with some humour, others.... that of the 7/South Staffords for August is incredibly brief. One line per day.
Anyway, thanks again for your input
Cheers
Sean
Thanks. I think I'll go with that as it does make sense.
Brian
No problem
I should have used the correct terminology myself. This was within the War Diary file, but as you say, isn't really a War Diary entry.They do vary in content as you know. Some have masses of "extras", some are written with some humour, others.... that of the 7/South Staffords for August is incredibly brief. One line per day.
Anyway, thanks again for your input
Cheers
Sean
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
KitMaker: 279 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 - 11:18 AM UTC
Just as a matter of interest, Dennis Oliver's Tank Craft book on Churchills NW Europe 1944-1945 gives the same order as the War Diary.
He also states that the aerial recognition White star was normally painted on the turret roof
Page 91 of the Haynes workshop manual on the Churchill has 2 photos of the Telephone box in use. The interior is not very exciting I am afraid as originally it consisted of a small rectangular box with a drop lead to which a Headset and microphone could be attached, which was later replaced with a telephone type handset. From what I could see there was no wiring external to the box.
He also states that the aerial recognition White star was normally painted on the turret roof
Page 91 of the Haynes workshop manual on the Churchill has 2 photos of the Telephone box in use. The interior is not very exciting I am afraid as originally it consisted of a small rectangular box with a drop lead to which a Headset and microphone could be attached, which was later replaced with a telephone type handset. From what I could see there was no wiring external to the box.
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
Armorama: 328 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 - 09:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Just as a matter of interest, Dennis Oliver's Tank Craft book on Churchills NW Europe 1944-1945 gives the same order as the War Diary.
He also states that the aerial recognition White star was normally painted on the turret roof
Page 91 of the Haynes workshop manual on the Churchill has 2 photos of the Telephone box in use. The interior is not very exciting I am afraid as originally it consisted of a small rectangular box with a drop lead to which a Headset and microphone could be attached, which was later replaced with a telephone type handset. From what I could see there was no wiring external to the box.
Thanks Norman
With a couple more Churchill's in the stash I think I'll give the Haynes book a look. The less exciting the telephone box, the easier (in theory) it should be to depict… hopefully
Cheers
Sean
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
Armorama: 965 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 - 11:07 PM UTC
Sean,
Well, not that we needed much confirmation after the SOIs, but my book on 34 Bde turned up today; it's a facsimile copy of a small booklet produced in 1945.
At Appendix C, the order of Battle (in other words the listing of units within the Brigade in seniority order) the grouping is:
147 Regt RAC
107 Regt RAC
153 Regt RAC.
Brian
Well, not that we needed much confirmation after the SOIs, but my book on 34 Bde turned up today; it's a facsimile copy of a small booklet produced in 1945.
At Appendix C, the order of Battle (in other words the listing of units within the Brigade in seniority order) the grouping is:
147 Regt RAC
107 Regt RAC
153 Regt RAC.
Brian
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 - 01:00 AM UTC
Just for the record (as I'd forgotten until I skimmed through the Bde history) a serving officer of 107 Regt - John Foley - wrote of his experiences in a book called "Mailed Fist" and also a novel "Death of a Regiment" which must have been based on the destruction of 153 Regt in Normandy. I would recommend both; when I first encountered them as a 15 year old I had great plans to make several Airfix Churchills (then the only game in town) to replicate Major Foley's vehicle and indeed his Troop, but as I'd just started my military career that plan had to be put on hold.
Fast forward a million years and I still haven't built those Churchills, but with the range of 1:35 models now available, it might be time to do so - particular as we now know what markings are what.
The odd snippets from these books are quite interesting: for instance, apparently Bde HQ was equipped with Sherman Tanks though infuriatingly doesn't say how many. I imagine only around 3 or so.
Brian
Fast forward a million years and I still haven't built those Churchills, but with the range of 1:35 models now available, it might be time to do so - particular as we now know what markings are what.
The odd snippets from these books are quite interesting: for instance, apparently Bde HQ was equipped with Sherman Tanks though infuriatingly doesn't say how many. I imagine only around 3 or so.
Brian
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 - 02:03 AM UTC
Again according to Oliver's book standard deployment was 4 Shermans
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 - 02:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Again according to Oliver's book standard deployment was 4 Shermans
That would make sense - Churchill units were organised in Troops of 3, and Sherman units in Troops of 4 so a Bde HQ Troop of 4 Tanks would be logical.
That would enable the Bde Comd to get out and about and close to the frontline so he could see what was going on, say one spare in case he was unhorsed, or another luminary from Bde HQ wished to see things, and perhaps 2 x for liaison duties (to Div and flanking Bdes) or even Defence (of the HQ) in extremis.
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 - 02:50 AM UTC
Thanks guys
Brian, I've been looking for a reasonably priced copy of Foley's "Mailed Fist" for a while but to no avail. Do you still have a copy? If so, could you let me know if there's much about the Orne Bridgehead/Grimbosq fighting within, please?
Re Churchills, the AFV Club kits I really like. I think they capture the look if the vehicle really well. The suspension is nicely done, and fit is pretty goof too. I'd recommend giving them a go. I have a half-finished MkIII, the MkIV I'm working on now and an AVRE awaiting my attention.
Cheers
Sean
Brian, I've been looking for a reasonably priced copy of Foley's "Mailed Fist" for a while but to no avail. Do you still have a copy? If so, could you let me know if there's much about the Orne Bridgehead/Grimbosq fighting within, please?
Re Churchills, the AFV Club kits I really like. I think they capture the look if the vehicle really well. The suspension is nicely done, and fit is pretty goof too. I'd recommend giving them a go. I have a half-finished MkIII, the MkIV I'm working on now and an AVRE awaiting my attention.
Cheers
Sean
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
Armorama: 965 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 - 06:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks guys
Brian, I've been looking for a reasonably priced copy of Foley's "Mailed Fist" for a while but to no avail. Do you still have a copy? If so, could you let me know if there's much about the Orne Bridgehead/Grimbosq fighting within, please?
Re Churchills, the AFV Club kits I really like. I think they capture the look if the vehicle really well. The suspension is nicely done, and fit is pretty goof too. I'd recommend giving them a go. I have a half-finished MkIII, the MkIV I'm working on now and an AVRE awaiting my attention.
Cheers
Sean
Sean,
There is indeed not least as Foley himself lost his tank at the Orne; you have to compare it with a timeline of the various battles as he doesn't quote dates. I find him very easy to read, he is understated, yet conveys what it is actually like living and working within a Churchill tank. He doesn't spare one the horrors of tank warfare yet writes with no small humility. Let's face it, they were up against Panthers and Tigers and though the Churchill was fairly stoutly armoured, it was outclassed by the German machines. I gather that in Normandy it was primarily 12 SS Pz who were responsible for their losses.
I've also found a link to the Regimental Museum which covers the Regiment here:
http://www.kingsownmuseum.com/gallerywwtwo046.htm
And within their Post War site there's this:
http://www.kingsownmuseum.com/gallerywwtwo134.htm
a grim reminder of the toll in Normandy; I imagine the collection of Churchills was taken after they'd been recovered to a particular area and not a tactical disposition, but very sobering indeed.
As it happens I have a spare "Mailed Fist"; if you ping me a PM with your postal address I'll get it off to you this week if you like.
You might want to track down the Brigade history as well; I have found it invaluable in cross- referencing not least with Foley's efforts.
Brian
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 - 07:30 AM UTC
Thanks very much Brian
The photo of the dumped Churchills is sobering.
Interesting to see a MkIII amongst them
I've sent you a PM re your kind offer
Cheers
Sean
The photo of the dumped Churchills is sobering.
Interesting to see a MkIII amongst them
I've sent you a PM re your kind offer
Cheers
Sean
Sean50
Joined: March 20, 2007
KitMaker: 340 posts
Armorama: 328 posts
Posted: Friday, February 08, 2019 - 10:19 AM UTC
Some IWM photos of 107 RAC Churchills would seem to confirm the position of the star on the turret:
Cheers
Sean
Cheers
Sean
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