Here's an early model (Sd.Kfz 9 Typ A) fitted with a hoist :
Hauling a Strabokran :
H.P.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Something Missing from the Famo?
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 03:47 AM UTC
Unusual load for a FA... oops Sd.Kfz 9
Here's an early model (Sd.Kfz 9 Typ A) fitted with a hoist :
Hauling a Strabokran :
H.P.
Here's an early model (Sd.Kfz 9 Typ A) fitted with a hoist :
Hauling a Strabokran :
H.P.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 04:24 AM UTC
Someone now makes that hoist though I have forgotten who it is. And of course the Strabokran is now available from two different manufactures.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 04:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Excellent research!
Just a couple of notes... first, the cable is attached to the top of the frame, not the middle as you have (unless there is another variant).
And I am not sure it could be raised to leave it completely vertical having the pulley there. It would strongly press the frame downwards . Either it was stored with a small angle, or maybe the tower was inclined backwards.
Carlos you will note that I had mentioned earlier the Tamiya spade frame is of a different design than the one shown in the historical photographs. Tamiya indicated to attach the cable to the middle cross member. I have my doubts as to Tamiya's accuracy in this regard. I even added a second hook at the top of my spade just so I could attach the cable in either location.
Also I mentioned that the large pulley on my model is only temporary to be replaced by a smaller fixed mount pulley on a small extended arm.
As to the spade frame going true vertical I too doubt this. Please keep in mind that ink drawing was done in 1987 for Tankette Magazine and so does not necessarily reflect actual wartime practice. If I were doing that drawing today I would never show the spade in the full upright and locked position but at a slight angle. However the historical photo does look as though the spade could be completely vertical. Without a side view it is impossible to tell. I do know the tower does not lean back.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 04:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Seems like two different vehicles or the same one at different time periods. The trailer appears to have a spare tire in one and not the other. That was the best difference I could pick out that seemed relevant.
Ryan - I never said one way or the other about the vehicles being the same - I only said the transformers were not the same - which would indicate two different shipments/deliveries. My intent was to suggest that it may have been quite common for the Germans to use their Heavy Military Equipment for such deliveries of large transformers, generators, motors, machine tools, etc. These two photos imply that we modelers could now have a much wider range of possible trailer loads over and above the shipping and recovery of only tanks and halftracks.
p.s. The current thought popping into my feeble little brain is that I could get away with mounting a large horizontal bed stationary steam engine on that trailer as though it were being delivered to a municipal power station. Hummmmmmmm
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 05:04 AM UTC
My thanks to everyone for getting so deeply involved in this discussion.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 06:51 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My thanks to everyone for getting so deeply involved in this discussion.
These are the kinds of discussions that make Armorama a true resource to modelers, and they happen because of excellent "spade" work from modelers like yourself. All thanks to you, mein Lieber.
LonCray1
Joined: November 28, 2018
KitMaker: 55 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 06:59 AM UTC
Hunh. Carrying around that Schwimmwagen in the back - reminds me of the huge American RV's with a Prius or other small car in tow. You could do some serious RVing (or caravaning to our UK friends) with a Sd.Kfz 9, no?
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 10:42 AM UTC
Yes, they may seem even less fuel efficient but I always have a special weakness for the RV's that have a ramp and a "Garage" in the back for a small car or Jeep.
OR . . . . the ones that have a "Basement" below the back bedroom that allows for one or two ATV's to be stowed cross-wise behind the back wheelset!
OR . . . . the ones that have a "Basement" below the back bedroom that allows for one or two ATV's to be stowed cross-wise behind the back wheelset!
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 12:48 PM UTC
Question for the Group:
I have read that the winch controls on the Famo were at the rear of the vehicle but I have yet to see anything that looks like any sort of control set.
There would have to be at least a throttle, line in/out controller and a brake lever. I also read that the lever for the mechanical brake on the winch was such that the operator could slide a piece of pipe over the lever to gain additional leverage for "holding the load" when necessary.
I have read that the winch controls on the Famo were at the rear of the vehicle but I have yet to see anything that looks like any sort of control set.
There would have to be at least a throttle, line in/out controller and a brake lever. I also read that the lever for the mechanical brake on the winch was such that the operator could slide a piece of pipe over the lever to gain additional leverage for "holding the load" when necessary.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 01:30 PM UTC
And once again, more beauty shots of the Sd. Kfz. 9 as general reference:
(Cannot seem to find any with the Recovery Spade attached)
(I don't know about anyone else but I get a real kick out of seeing these period photos especially when they are "Life Magazine" quality images!)
(Cannot seem to find any with the Recovery Spade attached)
(I don't know about anyone else but I get a real kick out of seeing these period photos especially when they are "Life Magazine" quality images!)
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 02:18 PM UTC
Something just found:
Apparently DES makes an after market recovery spade set that INCLUDES the support tower.
The DES offering threads the cable up through the floor and through the center of the tower thereby allowing the tailgate still be functional. A great idea but it does not appear that is how it was actually done.
Also their kit includes all the necessary clevises and turnbuckles needed to lock the spade in the stowed position for traveling. At least for DES those devices lock the spade arm in the perfectly vertical position?????? Live and learn!
Apparently DES makes an after market recovery spade set that INCLUDES the support tower.
The DES offering threads the cable up through the floor and through the center of the tower thereby allowing the tailgate still be functional. A great idea but it does not appear that is how it was actually done.
Also their kit includes all the necessary clevises and turnbuckles needed to lock the spade in the stowed position for traveling. At least for DES those devices lock the spade arm in the perfectly vertical position?????? Live and learn!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 09:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Something just found:
Apparently DES makes an after market recovery spade set that INCLUDES the support tower.
The DES offering threads the cable up through the floor and through the center of the tower thereby allowing the tailgate still be functional. A great idea but it does not appear that is how it was actually done.
Also their kit includes all the necessary clevises and turnbuckles needed to lock the spade in the stowed position for traveling. At least for DES those devices lock the spade arm in the perfectly vertical position?????? Live and learn!
Speaking of "garage-type loads", another thought came upon me- How about mounting a "Beiwagen" to the passenger side of an Sd.Kfz 9..? I think "WOT" would go NUTZ with that one...
(Sorry, this is what I do when I can't sleep...)
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Friday, February 15, 2019 - 09:16 PM UTC
Mike
I've just came across this thread showing a 1/16th (?) scale RC Sd.Kfz 9. The modeler has scratchbuilt the missing pulley support :
https://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12333
H.P.
I've just came across this thread showing a 1/16th (?) scale RC Sd.Kfz 9. The modeler has scratchbuilt the missing pulley support :
https://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12333
H.P.
KPHeinrich
Joined: September 08, 2007
KitMaker: 98 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2019 - 12:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Someone now makes that hoist though I have forgotten who it is. And of course the Strabokran is now available from two different manufactures.
This one ?
https://miniart-models.com/products/35238-bergepanzer-t-60-r-interior-kit/
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2019 - 02:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextSomeone now makes that hoist though I have forgotten who it is. And of course the Strabokran is now available from two different manufactures.
This one ?
https://miniart-models.com/products/35238-bergepanzer-t-60-r-interior-kit/
I wanted to buy just that crane because I saw almost the same thing installed on a 1936 Ford pickup to make it into a wrecker and wanted to do the same to one of those popular GAZ/Ford Russian trucks.
However that is not exactly the hoist that appears in the back of the Famo though this one would be just as usable. I know for a fact somebody makes this other crane in 1/35th I just can't find it right now in my files.
KPHeinrich
Joined: September 08, 2007
KitMaker: 98 posts
Armorama: 90 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2019 - 03:18 AM UTC
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2019 - 03:24 AM UTC
I guess the IBG one is a better match
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/bilstein-crane-t54771.html
http://perfectmodel.su/forum/39-209-2
H.P.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/bilstein-crane-t54771.html
http://perfectmodel.su/forum/39-209-2
H.P.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2019 - 07:03 AM UTC
Thanks KP - nice little truck!
Needless to say - they should make the crane available separately!
Nice little crane from a model standpoint and it would look great in the back of the Famo but from an actual use standpoint it would be very limited. Not much reach. Rated at only 1 ton capacity and I am sure that is only when using both legs for the lift. However the two legs only work together when pointed straight back. Try to swing the load to the side and suddenly only one leg is carrying all the weight. The arrangement on this truck severely limits its' reach but at least you can sit the engine down in the back of the truck and haul it away. It seems it's only use would be for engine changeouts and then only for Pz. III and earlier. Lift out the engine, back the truck up and sit the engine down in a cradle. That is about all it would be good for.
IMHO - On a day to day basis that little boy would be a real pain in the butt to use.
Needless to say - they should make the crane available separately!
Nice little crane from a model standpoint and it would look great in the back of the Famo but from an actual use standpoint it would be very limited. Not much reach. Rated at only 1 ton capacity and I am sure that is only when using both legs for the lift. However the two legs only work together when pointed straight back. Try to swing the load to the side and suddenly only one leg is carrying all the weight. The arrangement on this truck severely limits its' reach but at least you can sit the engine down in the back of the truck and haul it away. It seems it's only use would be for engine changeouts and then only for Pz. III and earlier. Lift out the engine, back the truck up and sit the engine down in a cradle. That is about all it would be good for.
IMHO - On a day to day basis that little boy would be a real pain in the butt to use.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2019 - 11:46 PM UTC
Off topic for the Famo but ON TOPIC for cranes Something I came across while searching for cranes. - Something I had never seen before!
I am sure everyone else (Frenchy) has seen these many times and I am probably the last to know but when I saw these two photos they really impressed me. WOW!
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 01:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am sure everyone else (Frenchy) has seen these many times and I am probably the last to know but when I saw these two photos they really impressed me. WOW![/I]
I can't speak for everyone else, but this one is new to me
H.P.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 03:59 AM UTC
The moment I saw this I thought "if Henri doesn't already know about this one then he is going to want to add it to his files!"
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 04:42 AM UTC
What about this one ?
It was used during demining operations in Denmark in 1945-1947 :
http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/german/denmine/denmine.htm
H.P.
It was used during demining operations in Denmark in 1945-1947 :
http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/german/denmine/denmine.htm
H.P.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 05:30 AM UTC
Gents, first of all, excellent "spade" work has now moved outside of one hoist to the question of lifting devices (and their bodacious fans). That's exciting to see other dio ideas in the making.
Second, I suspect there were as many "cranes" in WW2 as there were machinists: the famous "hedgerow cutter" of Normandy in 1944 was actually a series of devices improvised by several inventors. A "crane" is very easy to improvise with a couple of I-beams, a welding torch and some pulleys.
Third, the Eastern Front pulchritude probably comes from before the Nazis turned the "enslaved" nations "liberated" form the Soviets by murdering them. I have seen newsreels and photos of wildly cheering Ukrainian crowds who only later realized some of them and their neighbors were going to wind up in forced labor battalions, starved to death or hung as partisans. The Nazis had a tendency to turn entire populations into partisans that way.
Second, I suspect there were as many "cranes" in WW2 as there were machinists: the famous "hedgerow cutter" of Normandy in 1944 was actually a series of devices improvised by several inventors. A "crane" is very easy to improvise with a couple of I-beams, a welding torch and some pulleys.
Third, the Eastern Front pulchritude probably comes from before the Nazis turned the "enslaved" nations "liberated" form the Soviets by murdering them. I have seen newsreels and photos of wildly cheering Ukrainian crowds who only later realized some of them and their neighbors were going to wind up in forced labor battalions, starved to death or hung as partisans. The Nazis had a tendency to turn entire populations into partisans that way.
KPHeinrich
Joined: September 08, 2007
KitMaker: 98 posts
Armorama: 90 posts
Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2019 - 05:37 AM UTC
The Pz III used in the mineclearing operations after
the war, is about to be restored by a group of private
collectors.
Their FB page : https://www.facebook.com/www.gillelejegruppen.dk/
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2019 - 08:12 PM UTC
Hey Frenchy; regarding those latest Famo photos with "J crane" you found. That is actually just a common (for the day) standard mechanic's, roll around, manual engine lift. It has been temporarily placed into the back of the Famo. It is not bolted down or attached to the vehicle in any way. If you look close you will see the somewhat odd "tank tread" style rolling glides sticking out over the end of the Famo tailgate.
In the second photo the mechanics have jury rigged some lite overhead rail that is supporting the actual chain hoist that will lift the engine out. One end of this arrangement sits on the crossbar of the J crane and the other ends are on jury-rigged wooden blocks on top of the tank's turret.
Not really sure what the mechanic's plan is once the engine is up out of the Panzer, maybe just work on it right there, hanging in mid-air. Or perhaps somehow to slide it on those overhead rails to the right until the J crane could hook on to it. Then roll the whole thing (crane and engine) into the back of the Famo where it could be hauled off.
It took me a while to recognize it. I have only seen one other J crane like that.
The one above made by the Franklin Portable Crane and Hoist Company; Franklin, PA.
There are hundreds of slightly differing designs for these cranes, most being on castors rather than tracks.
In the second photo the mechanics have jury rigged some lite overhead rail that is supporting the actual chain hoist that will lift the engine out. One end of this arrangement sits on the crossbar of the J crane and the other ends are on jury-rigged wooden blocks on top of the tank's turret.
Not really sure what the mechanic's plan is once the engine is up out of the Panzer, maybe just work on it right there, hanging in mid-air. Or perhaps somehow to slide it on those overhead rails to the right until the J crane could hook on to it. Then roll the whole thing (crane and engine) into the back of the Famo where it could be hauled off.
It took me a while to recognize it. I have only seen one other J crane like that.
The one above made by the Franklin Portable Crane and Hoist Company; Franklin, PA.
There are hundreds of slightly differing designs for these cranes, most being on castors rather than tracks.
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