Paul from Model Cellar informed us on his latest release, a wheel tread set for WWI British Howitzer from Roden. Check it out!
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If you have comments or questions please post them here.
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Model Cellar: Wheel Tread Set for WWI British Howitzer
Maki
Senior Editor
Joined: February 13, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 07:49 PM UTC
Paul from Model Cellar informed us on his latest release, a wheel tread set for WWI British Howitzer from Roden. Check it out!
Read the Full News Story
If you have comments or questions please post them here.
Thanks!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 - 09:00 PM UTC
Thank You, Mario! 
YES! It's about time someone addressed this important detail!
YES! It's about time someone addressed this important detail!
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2019 - 04:50 AM UTC
Yes, -but-, it's incorrect and perpetuates some of the kits faults. The original tread pattern was an "opposed" tread pattern on each wheel, and the Model 1917 and 1918 Howitzers apparently used steel wheels as opposed to this rubber tread pattern. This offering looks like it directly copies the kit, which in turn looks like it is patterned off the example at the Finnish War Museum, that version appears to have a replacement wheel from another Howitzer, or one with the tread pattern mounted backward (they are riveted on). The Finnish Museum's Howitzer is also a late post-WWI Howitzer, one of several exported from the US to Finland in the 1930s, with rubber tread. The WWI version apparently had steel wheel treads, while later versions had the rubber pad "tires". Rick Taylor and I are preparing an upcoming build article on this kit and the Holt Tractor. It's commendable that Model Cellar has tackled this, but it appears they have copied the kit error. Rick has accessed the actual manuals for the Howitzer in research for the article.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
saransk
Joined: September 15, 2010
KitMaker: 84 posts
Armorama: 23 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 03:37 AM UTC
This may be simplistic, but it would seem to me that you could just rotate the pieces to reverse "hand" them.
they look symmetrical otherwise.
Mike
they look symmetrical otherwise.
Mike
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 03:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This may be simplistic, but it would seem to me that you could just rotate the pieces to reverse "hand" them.
they look symmetrical otherwise.
Mike
Doesn't work.
Take a piece of paper, draw a set of parallell lines angled downward from left to right (just like the wheel treads).
Rotate the paper 180 degrees and check if the lines are angled downward left to right or right to left.
Rotation is not the same "operation" as mirroring.
A rotation will never produce a mirror image.
The pieces for the left and right wheel should form a series of chevrons when laid next to each other.
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 04:01 AM UTC
The parts also have another fault.
Check if you can spot it
A better photo if the one above isn't clear enough
Check if you can spot it
A better photo if the one above isn't clear enough
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 04:52 AM UTC
Robin,
You are (halfway) correct in your assessment. You are right in that you can't just turn the resin parts over (I tried that first thing with the kit parts, and tried to reverse the wheels as well-- that doesn't work either-- they have to be mirrored images of each other-- in other words, the bend (in ModelCellar's parts) has to go the other way-- I don't know how hard it would be for them to do that. The Handbook for the 8" Model 1918 Howitzer specifically states the wheels are not reversible (page 21, Handbook for Vickers 8" Howitzer Model 1917 January 15, 1918).
I think the other thing you are getting at is the rivets in the pads-- but they came both ways, rivets between the pads and rivets on the pads-- the British liked them through the pads for traction, apparently the Americans liked them between the pads. Most Post WWI Howitzers look like your photos, with rivets through the rubber pads. The number of rivets could vary as well, the initial number of rivets found during WWI could be either two or four-- most photos I've seen post-WWI show four rivets, between or through the pads. There was also one rivet-hole left "open" in various locations around the wheel as a drain hole (the wheels have a few inches of space between the inner and outer rims, which likely collected water. There is a fix for al this which Rick Taylor and I have done for the upcoming article being written, but it involves some simple scratchbuilding. Personally, I'd like to see ModelCellar revise these (I sent the PDF of the Handbook to them last night), because I'm basically lazy, and I'd rather have the resin versions than go to the scratch-building I had to do on mine (especially since I'm considering building another one on the firing platform!).
VR, Russ6
You are (halfway) correct in your assessment. You are right in that you can't just turn the resin parts over (I tried that first thing with the kit parts, and tried to reverse the wheels as well-- that doesn't work either-- they have to be mirrored images of each other-- in other words, the bend (in ModelCellar's parts) has to go the other way-- I don't know how hard it would be for them to do that. The Handbook for the 8" Model 1918 Howitzer specifically states the wheels are not reversible (page 21, Handbook for Vickers 8" Howitzer Model 1917 January 15, 1918).
I think the other thing you are getting at is the rivets in the pads-- but they came both ways, rivets between the pads and rivets on the pads-- the British liked them through the pads for traction, apparently the Americans liked them between the pads. Most Post WWI Howitzers look like your photos, with rivets through the rubber pads. The number of rivets could vary as well, the initial number of rivets found during WWI could be either two or four-- most photos I've seen post-WWI show four rivets, between or through the pads. There was also one rivet-hole left "open" in various locations around the wheel as a drain hole (the wheels have a few inches of space between the inner and outer rims, which likely collected water. There is a fix for al this which Rick Taylor and I have done for the upcoming article being written, but it involves some simple scratchbuilding. Personally, I'd like to see ModelCellar revise these (I sent the PDF of the Handbook to them last night), because I'm basically lazy, and I'd rather have the resin versions than go to the scratch-building I had to do on mine (especially since I'm considering building another one on the firing platform!).
VR, Russ6
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 06:56 AM UTC
Thanks for sorting out the rivets and their positioning. I found contradictory images. There is even one with the same tread pattern on both wheels, dictated by necessity when finding wheels for a museum piece I suppose.
If the "bend" went the other way the rivets and pads would be on the inside.
Mirroring the pattern is the only solution. There is no way whatsoever to twist and turn an object into a mirror version of itself. Mathematically impossible, mirroring is the only way.
If it is a CAD-design then it should only be a few key clicks away. Very useful feature when creating variety in architecture for instance.
/ Robin
If the "bend" went the other way the rivets and pads would be on the inside.
Mirroring the pattern is the only solution. There is no way whatsoever to twist and turn an object into a mirror version of itself. Mathematically impossible, mirroring is the only way.
If it is a CAD-design then it should only be a few key clicks away. Very useful feature when creating variety in architecture for instance.
/ Robin
modelcellar
Joined: July 22, 2008
KitMaker: 75 posts
Armorama: 21 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 07:54 AM UTC
Hi Folks.
Welllll, ok, here's the scoop =). I didn't copy the Roden rubber band as Russ suggested in his first post. I opened the kit, saw that thing and said "YUK" and threw that piece of trash out. Then I set off looking for pics of the real thing. As Robin just stated above, I found lots of conflicting images - treads up, treads down, opposing, not opposing, 2 rivets, 4 rivets, rivets on the high part, rivets on the low part, rubber pads, no rubber pads, etc. - ARGH which one is correct ?!?! Then I found these pics of a piece in a museum. >>>ARGH _ I can't seem to figure out how to include them here but I sent them to Russ - Russ, can you help??>>
But, the photos I used showed the treads CLEARLY. And, I figured well, if you can't trust a MUSEUM, who can you trust? It turns out they were the pics from the Finnish War Museum Russ referenced. {{So, if you want to build a model of the Howitzer on display in the Finnish War museum, I'm your man !LOL!! }}
Now the ironic (comical?) thing is Robin just posted pics from a MUSEUM to refute other pics from a MUSEUM ?!?!? go figure!? Russ emailed me, sent me the detailed info from the technical manual and explained what happened regarding the Howitzers in the Finnish War Museum. Based on detailed info the Howitzer experts, Russ and Rick, I WILL REVISE THE TREAD PATTERNS.
One last question though - maybe the Howitzer experts can chime in: Do the treads angle up as you go from the inside of the wheel to the outside, or do they angle down (Robins pics above show both) ...or doesn't it matter? I thought it didn't matter before and I got CRUSHED =)).
Let me know and I will proceed with the proper correction.
regards,
Paul
Welllll, ok, here's the scoop =). I didn't copy the Roden rubber band as Russ suggested in his first post. I opened the kit, saw that thing and said "YUK" and threw that piece of trash out. Then I set off looking for pics of the real thing. As Robin just stated above, I found lots of conflicting images - treads up, treads down, opposing, not opposing, 2 rivets, 4 rivets, rivets on the high part, rivets on the low part, rubber pads, no rubber pads, etc. - ARGH which one is correct ?!?! Then I found these pics of a piece in a museum. >>>ARGH _ I can't seem to figure out how to include them here but I sent them to Russ - Russ, can you help??>>
But, the photos I used showed the treads CLEARLY. And, I figured well, if you can't trust a MUSEUM, who can you trust? It turns out they were the pics from the Finnish War Museum Russ referenced. {{So, if you want to build a model of the Howitzer on display in the Finnish War museum, I'm your man !LOL!! }}
Now the ironic (comical?) thing is Robin just posted pics from a MUSEUM to refute other pics from a MUSEUM ?!?!? go figure!? Russ emailed me, sent me the detailed info from the technical manual and explained what happened regarding the Howitzers in the Finnish War Museum. Based on detailed info the Howitzer experts, Russ and Rick, I WILL REVISE THE TREAD PATTERNS.
One last question though - maybe the Howitzer experts can chime in: Do the treads angle up as you go from the inside of the wheel to the outside, or do they angle down (Robins pics above show both) ...or doesn't it matter? I thought it didn't matter before and I got CRUSHED =)).
Let me know and I will proceed with the proper correction.
regards,
Paul
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 07:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks for sorting out the rivets and their positioning. I found contradictory images. There is even one with the same tread pattern on both wheels, dictated by necessity I when finding wheels for a museum piece I suppose.
If the "bend" went the other way the rivets and pads would be on the inside.
Mirroring the pattern is the only solution. There is no way whatsoever to twist and turn an object into a mirror version of itself. Mathematically impossible, mirroring is the only way.
If it is a CAD-design then it should only be a few key clicks away. Very useful feature when creating variety in architecture for instance.
/ Robin
There is an "easy" solution to the wheels, and Rick Taylor and I have proven it works, but we went about it in different ways:
1) At the bottom of Page 2 (the parts diagrams)of the instructions is a 1/35 scale drawing of the 2 vinyl tread patterns included in the kit. I cut these out, matched them to a .020 thick strip of Evergreen sheet, and using a Friskars circular paper cutter, cut two identical width strips, which I then glued to the wheels in place of the vinyl offerings.
2) Then, using the paper cut outs from the instructions, I glued one directly to the Evergreen strip I'd made for the first wheel, image up, let it dry, then cut out some lengths of "treads" (24 per wheel) using .030 X .080 Evergreen strip.
3) I glued these "tread strips" right over the template glued to the wheel in step 2 above.
4) For the opposite wheel, I wrapped the second diagram from the instructions around the wheel UPSIDE DOWN, applied a liberal coat of Tamiya thin cement, and the ink image transferred perfectly to the white Evergreen strip. I then applied the tread pattern strips over the inked image, just like in step 2/3 above.
Rick Taylor used some clear acetate to make his "opposed tread patterns, which is probably a little more exacting than my method, but both work, mine just requires a "sacrifice" of the second page of the instruction sheet to the "modeling gods".
But really, it would be great if ModelCellar would produce this for us, so we don't have to resort to these drastic measures, and I applaud them for trying. It would have been better if Roden had got it right to begin with, but it is correctable.
VR, Russ
modelcellar
Joined: July 22, 2008
KitMaker: 75 posts
Armorama: 21 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 08:08 AM UTC
Hi Russ,evidently we are crossing messages =).
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 08:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Folks.
Welllll, ok, here's the scoop =). I didn't copy the Roden rubber band as Russ suggested in his first post. I opened the kit, saw that thing and said "YUK" and threw that piece of trash out. Then I set off looking for pics of the real thing. As Robin just stated above, I found lots of conflicting images - treads up, treads down, opposing, not opposing, 2 rivets, 4 rivets, rivets on the high part, rivets on the low part, rubber pads, no rubber pads, etc. - ARGH which one is correct ?!?! Then I found these pics of a piece in a museum. >>>ARGH _ I can't seem to figure out how to include them here but I sent them to Russ - Russ, can you help??>>
But, the photos I used showed the treads CLEARLY. And, I figured well, if you can't trust a MUSEUM, who can you trust? It turns out they were the pics from the Finnish War Museum Russ referenced. {{So, if you want to build a model of the Howitzer on display in the Finnish War museum, I'm your man !LOL!! }}
Now the ironic (comical?) thing is Robin just posted pics from a MUSEUM to refute other pics from a MUSEUM ?!?!? go figure!? Russ emailed me, sent me the detailed info from the technical manual and explained what happened regarding the Howitzers in the Finnish War Museum. Based on detailed info the Howitzer experts, Russ and Rick, I WILL REVISE THE TREAD PATTERNS.
One last question though - maybe the Howitzer experts can chime in: Do the treads angle up as you go from the inside of the wheel to the outside, or do they angle down (Robins pics above show both) ...or doesn't it matter? I thought it didn't matter before and I got CRUSHED =)).
Let me know and I will proceed with the proper correction.
regards,
Paul
Paul,
Again, I applaud your efforts, and it's a simple mistake, and you re-issuing the tires is really tremendous, I'll be one of the first to buy a set.
To address the things you mention:
1) The "museum" pattern tire photos, seemingly from "different" museums-- I think these are the same gun at different times and different locations at the Finnish Army Museum-- but they also have a gun there that has the "correct" pattern tires, or at least they did at one time. and, I believe the IWM has several 8" howitzers, one of which I think also is "kit standard", but I think all these Howitzers have been "messed with" somewhat for these outdoor displays. In my experience with these museum pieces, the weapon in the worst shape is usually consigned to outdoors display. Rick Taylor and I found one period WWI photo with the tread pattern going the same way as these museum Howitzers (and the kit tires), but according to the 8" Handbook, these wheels are not reversible and are "sided", with diagrams showing the "correct" arrangement. The only explanation I have for that is they were "field expedient" replacements. Knowing what I know about how creative the Finns were during the Russo-Finnish war, I suspect they did anything to keep their guns in action--and perhaps the 1930s Howitzers did indeed have treads that deviated out of that necessity--they were also rubber, whereas the WWI guns were steel.
2) As to the "chevron pattern" you mention, looking back at the wheels from the muzzle end of the Howitzer, it appears the "chevrons" should angle upward from the outside of the wheel to the inside of the wheel. This appears in three of the 8" Handbook diagrams of the 1)Howitzer, 2)the Howitzer in trail, and 3) the Howitzer on the firing platform, it also appears that way in most of the WWI photos I've examined.
Thanks again to Paul for making the revision!
VR, Russ
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 08:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Russ,evidently we are crossing messages =).
Paul, Yep, we are crossing messages for sure. I think I answered your questions in my last post. But here's a suggestion, if it's not too hard to do-- why not make the four main "Rivet Patterns", then folks can choose to buy/build what they want:
1) Steel treads with two rivets on the inside (what we think may be the "early" US pattern).
2) Steel wheels with four rivets on the inside of the pads ("late" US pattern).
3) Steel wheels with four rivets on the pads (British pattern)--these could double as the later steel wheels and rubber tread pad wheels too, it's just a mater of painting.
4) Steel wheels, rubber pads, rivets on the inside (obviously what might be called the "Finnish pattern")
Just a suggestion, not sure if its feasible-- or cost effective.
VR, Russ
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 08:56 AM UTC
Does it really matter if the resin parts are made too show chevron pointing up or pointing down?
Are they left and right handed on the inside?
If they are symmetrical on the inside I assume that it would be possible to use the parts for the left wheel on the right side and vice versa. Leave it to the modeller to decide if he/she wants to build chevron pointing up or down.
As long as the tread is mirrored.
/ Robin
Are they left and right handed on the inside?
If they are symmetrical on the inside I assume that it would be possible to use the parts for the left wheel on the right side and vice versa. Leave it to the modeller to decide if he/she wants to build chevron pointing up or down.
As long as the tread is mirrored.
/ Robin
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 09:16 AM UTC
Robin, that's a good point. However, I'd defer to the 8" Handbook as the correct pattern, which has them decidedly facing up. I think the one photo you sent with them facing down is exactly what you suggest the modeler can do-- it's just the museum did it on the real thing! looking closely at the photo above, I think those wheels (the one with "chevrons" facing down) have been completely rebuilt with new treads for this museum display piece, they look great, but I think they are totally new, vs. reconditioned or original old parts. In short-- I think these wheels are new--mounted in reverse-- that's not to say crews didn't do this in the field(even though the 8" Handbook said they are not reversible).
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 09:31 AM UTC
I found some photos that claimed to show the 8 inch howitzer with the chevrons pointing the other way but those guns were not exactly similar to the one in Rodens box.
There were also guns with wider wheels/treads with chevrons going both ways.
The odd ones:
Finnish field artillery in WW II
Maybe they just made it work and made the "wrong" wheel fit to get an operational gun ...
Note that two gunners are wearing different helmets, maybe 'Made in Sweden'. The others have the German style helmets.
On display in the Crystal Palace in 1923
The most common or "per regulation" seems to be the chevrons pointing up when seen from the muzzle.
/ Robin
There were also guns with wider wheels/treads with chevrons going both ways.
The odd ones:
Finnish field artillery in WW II
Maybe they just made it work and made the "wrong" wheel fit to get an operational gun ...
Note that two gunners are wearing different helmets, maybe 'Made in Sweden'. The others have the German style helmets.
On display in the Crystal Palace in 1923
The most common or "per regulation" seems to be the chevrons pointing up when seen from the muzzle.
/ Robin
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2019 - 10:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I found some photos that claimed to show the 8 inch howitzer with the chevrons pointing the other way but those guns were not exactly similar to the one in Rodens box.
There were also guns with wider wheels/treads with chevrons going both ways.
The odd ones:
Finnish field artillery in WW II
Maybe they just made it work and made the "wrong" wheel fit to get an operational gun ...
Note that two gunners are wearing different helmets, maybe 'Made in Sweden'. The others have the German style helmets.
On display in the Crystal Palace in 1923
The most common or "per regulation" seems to be the chevrons pointing up when seen from the muzzle.
/ Robin
Robin, that first photo is a Finnish gun during the Russo-Finnish war sometime after 1939, when the US exported 32 "refurbished" guns to Finland. The way to date this photo is (besides the helmets):
1) The presence of the revised recuperating cylinder "lubrication box" on the first barrel band on the right side of the gun
2) The small "lidded cover" over the accessory box the left side of the trail, which doesn't appear in the 1917 or 1918 Handbook (or in the second photo-the kit has this box too, and I just left mine, being basically lazy, i might "fix that "later".
3) The rubber pad design on the wheels.
I suspect the wheels have been monkeyed with by the crew, In fact, the right wheel appears to be mounted backwards, or replaced with something totally different, as there should be a gap of several inches between the tread and wheel on that side of the wheel-- and there isn't. I think the wheel is a replacement, but I could be wrong, and the US shipped it that way-- after all who would have cared? the Finns were just probably glad to get it.
The other two photos look like vintage WWI (The second one being a display post-war), and the one with the repeated pattern in the wheel tread is one of the "exceptions" I mentioned before-- I think a field expedient. The Roden Howitzer is a Vickers 8" BL Mk VI gun, the bulk of which were manufactured in the US by the Midvale Iron Iron Works of Nicetown Pennsylvania. There were earlier Vickers guns (Mk III-V) built by Vickers in GB, which were less successful and built to different specs, plus a 155mm gun on a similar Vickers type carriage. The wheel patterns are "all over the place" in those guns, so all bets are off for those--some had no tread at all.
I should also mention the brake arrangement-- there were different post war brakes. Roden's box top art shows post war brakes-- British designed, which would follow this gun when it was fitted with rubber tires by GB in the 1930s. But the brakes inside Roden's box are the WWI type with the hand-wheels outside the wheels at the front, and the brake shoes inside the wheels, rather than the box art "outside the wheel arrangement-- both types are present at the Finnish Army Museum I think-- go figure.
and-- Roden has the wheels in the box art with the "chevrons down" attitude.
VR, Russ
idioms
Joined: November 29, 2020
KitMaker: 1 posts
Armorama: 1 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 28, 2020 - 11:57 PM UTC
Hello Russ
I hope this quick question is ok as I'm new to this site, on the Vickers Howitzer bl8 brakes with the blocks inside the wheels some of the hand turning wheels come out the front horizontal and brake block set low in the wheels and others the hand turning wheels come out at about a 30 degree angle and the brake blocks set higher on the rim ,which would you say is the earlier British design .
Thanks Mal.
I hope this quick question is ok as I'm new to this site, on the Vickers Howitzer bl8 brakes with the blocks inside the wheels some of the hand turning wheels come out the front horizontal and brake block set low in the wheels and others the hand turning wheels come out at about a 30 degree angle and the brake blocks set higher on the rim ,which would you say is the earlier British design .
Thanks Mal.
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