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Armor/AFV: IDF [Israeli Defense Forces]
Armor and AFVs of the IDF army from 1947-today.
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IDF Half-tracks
Alanroy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 02:36 AM UTC
Good morning from a long-time lurker,
I have 2 questions regarding IDF half-tracks of the 1948 - 1967 eras.
I've seen several half-track models with a German 37mm flak gun mounted. Fact or fiction? Any photographic evidence for it?
Secondly, the M3 (M16B per Tom Cannon's Israeli Half-tracks, Volume Two) with the twin TCM 20s mounted on a revised Maxson turret. Did the IDF use the original quad .50s at all? Again, any photographic evidence?
Thank you all,
Alan
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Did the IDF use the original quad .50s at all? Again, any photographic evidence?




M45 Quadmount on M3:



M55 Quadmount on BTR-152:



Alanroy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:37 AM UTC
Thank you, kind Sir!
So the M45 is a twin .50, and the M55 is the quad? And what, exactly, is the BTR-152?
jfeenstra
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you, kind Sir!
So the M45 is a twin .50, and the M55 is the quad? And what, exactly, is the BTR-152?



BTR-152 is a Russian built APC captured from the Egyptians.
Alanroy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 04:02 AM UTC
Thank you!
Alan
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 04:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So the M45 is a twin .50, and the M55 is the quad?



No. When you put an M45 quad turret on an M20 trailer you get the M55 Machine Gun Trailer Mount. This was then dropped into a BTR-152.



Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 05:02 AM UTC
The twin gun variant of the Maxson turret is the M33. It was used on the M13 MGMC (and the M5-based M14 MGMC) :



H.P.
M_Wittmann
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 07:23 AM UTC
True, HP. It could also have been used on an M2 or M3, as your photo suggests.
Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 07:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

True, HP. It could also have been used on an M2 or M3, as your photo suggests.



In fact I've checked out the larger version of the picture I've posted and realized that it was indeed a M3 fitted with a M45 mount with the two lower MGs removed

Here's a M13 MGMC :



and a M14 :



H.P.
Alanroy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:05 AM UTC
Thank you. That must be what they did in the picture of the Israeli M3, as I only see 2 .50s.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That must be what they did in the picture of the Israeli M3, as I only see 2 .50s.



I don't think so. The lower barrel, as well as the rear magazine can be clearly seen.

Frenchy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you. That must be what they did in the picture of the Israeli M3, as I only see 2 .50s.



I guess the 4 MGs are there. You can notice the ammo box of the lower gun behind the top gun one. The lower gun barrel is even faintly visible through the dust..

Edit : Israel has beaten me to it

H.P.
Alanroy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:27 AM UTC
Ah, yes, I had forgotten that the upper guns were mounted forward of the lower ones.
Thank you one and all so much for the guidance!
Back to sleep ....
Alanroy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:27 AM UTC
And now to wait for the question about the German 37mm flak gun.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 05:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And now to wait for the question about the German 37mm flak gun.



I would say highly unlikely. I havenít been able to find any evidence of the IDF using the German 37mm Flak, let alone mounted on a Halftrack. The IDF did, however, use the similar looking 40mm Bofors gun (not mounted on Halftracks though).
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:28 PM UTC
I've found another picture of an IDF M16 from the Six-Day War.

hazzardm
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:46 PM UTC
Same reply on ML

I saw Graeme's IDF/37mm model in the flesh in Canada some years ago, he confirmed it was a 'what if'

MJH
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:57 PM UTC
Mystery solved then.
Alanroy
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:59 PM UTC
Thank you, Israel.
I can see the hinges for folding the sides down. Looking at the very first picture I can also barely make out the same hinges. So is the first picture actually an M16?
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 12:26 AM UTC
I think it is...
Alanroy
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 01:39 AM UTC
Thank you, one and all. So either I go with the Dragon M3 with TCM 20, or get an M16.
Hmmm, last question. Tamiya, Dragon, or AFV Club?
Alanroy
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 02:02 AM UTC
I think it will be the Dragon kit. Tamiya is pretty old, and I can't find any reviews for the AFV Club kit. Of course it may be a fable, as I only saw it on eBay.
Alanroy
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 02:31 AM UTC
Ok, the AFV Club kit says "design in progress". So now I'll just have to wait.
Thank you all again!
Alan
Alanroy
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Posted: Monday, August 05, 2019 - 11:01 AM UTC
Me again.
I just noticed the the M16 pictures do not show the cut-out in the top of the armor plate. So maybe like the M16Bs? The turret mounted high?
My head hurts ....
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