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Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
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"Lowly" 105
b2nhvi
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Posted: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 - 06:39 PM UTC
Not really model related, but I figure stream the of knowledge available here was a good place to stat panning for gold.I know most of the major league teams are using 120mm / 125mm guns but there are still a number of 105mm gunned tanks out there. Good as infantry support and will ruin an IFVs day, but how effective would it be against a new gen tank? What sort of range would the target have to be to receive real damage.
Reason for asking is it seems JGSDF 2nd Tank Regt. use a mix of 1 Co. of Type 10s, the balance being a mix of Type 90s and Type 74s .. not sure the distribution 1 Co. of Type 74s or 1 Platoon of 74 per Type 90 Co.
Sabot
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Posted: Thursday, July 18, 2019 - 06:51 PM UTC
105s are effective against tanks from the T-72 lineage. Modern sabot rounds are not defeated by ERA bricks.

There are also a lot of IFV vehicles on the modern battlefield as well as wheeled armored vehicles like the Centauro and Stryker MGS.

105 equipped tanks can handle these threats with ease.
GregCopplin
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Posted: Friday, July 19, 2019 - 01:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

105s are effective against tanks from the T-72 lineage. Modern sabot rounds are not defeated by ERA bricks.

There are also a lot of IFV vehicles on the modern battlefield as well as wheeled armored vehicles like the Centauro and Stryker MGS.

105 equipped tanks can handle these threats with ease.



When i was at Stryker leader course they told us the MGS was not to be used to fight tanks and that it was an infantry support weapon, in essence a door knocker. But after talking to some of the armor officers they agreed that you could technically shoot some vehicles such as bmps and btrs but that you were to not try and pick a fight with tanks. I do believe that the MGS could be used as an ambush weapon that shoots and scoots, essentially a modern day stug in some respects but they made it sound as if the only thing you’d do was get a mobility kill on anything bigger then a T-62
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, July 19, 2019 - 01:29 AM UTC
What's the most common enemy on the battlefield? The few thousand new generation MBTs that countries can afford or the hordes of T-54/55, Type 59 derivatives still out there?

Do you really need a kill at 3000 meters in covered terrain where you can only see 1000 meters? Also tank gunnery is at center of mass of the target. If that new tank (or updated old one) is covered against a 105mm APFSDS from the front-- can I get a hit when it will inevitably shows its flank to me and I can penetrate the hull armor?

Most of the fancy standoff armor is for shaped charges not SABOT. Not every engagement is at maximum range on a pool table like desert so a 105mm can work fine in many cases. And there's humidity and haze that reduces range most places. There's often no clear sight picture at extreme range in temperate environments.

So again that 120mm might be "just in case" as opposed to absolutely necessary.

Or was it those exhaustive studies the JSDF did on weapons effectiveness against giant monsters? They found that 120mm offers no advantage over a 105mm against giant monsters.

BTW, I served with one of the guys who wrote the gunnery manual for the MGS. You can kill anything an M60 (or Type 74) can which includes T-62 and T-72. T-80 flanks and rear.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Friday, July 19, 2019 - 01:37 AM UTC
In addition to what Bravo1102 and Sabot said, just look at stats and pictures from Operation Desert Storm. There are multiple cases where 105mm-armed USMC M60A1 and M60A3 (loaned from Army) tanks killed T72s easily. T72s, and T90s (which are only updated T72s) are not as good as we though they were and were easily killed by 105mm armed tanks. They were sliced and diced by 120mm-armed M1A1 Abrams; think hot knife through butter.

A lot of the credit goes to well-trained crews as well.

Can a Stryker MGS destroy a modern, 4th generation Main Battle Tank (MBT) like an Abrams, not easily, but it can cause a mobility or firepower kill. Can it kill an earlier generation MBT, very easily. It will make minced meat out of pretty much any other AFV short of an MBT as well; BMP, MTLB, trucks, etc...
GregCopplin
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Posted: Friday, July 19, 2019 - 03:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What's the most common enemy on the battlefield? The few thousand new generation MBTs that countries can afford or the hordes of T-54/55, Type 59 derivatives still out there?

Do you really need a kill at 3000 meters in covered terrain where you can only see 1000 meters? Also tank gunnery is at center of mass of the target. If that new tank (or updated old one) is covered against a 105mm APFSDS from the front-- can I get a hit when it will inevitably shows its flank to me and I can penetrate the hull armor?

Most of the fancy standoff armor is for shaped charges not SABOT. Not every engagement is at maximum range on a pool table like desert so a 105mm can work fine in many cases. And there's humidity and haze that reduces range most places. There's often no clear sight picture at extreme range in temperate environments.

So again that 120mm might be "just in case" as opposed to absolutely necessary.

Or was it those exhaustive studies the JSDF did on weapons effectiveness against giant monsters? They found that 120mm offers no advantage over a 105mm against giant monsters.

BTW, I served with one of the guys who wrote the gunnery manual for the MGS. You can kill anything an M60 (or Type 74) can which includes T-62 and T-72. T-80 flanks and rear.



Yeah that’s what baffles is that these armor officers don’t want to use it against other armor but at the end of the day we’re not going to be facing swarms of T-90s and Armatas, it’ll be more like the T-62 and T-72 variants that have been exported/ mass produced. I believe that you can use an mgs to fight tanks but at the end of the day it’s a thin skinned vehicle which means you need to use it in an ambush or haul down position if your going to do that. Unfortunately the MGS isn’t as common as i believed, it’s considered a specialty platoon along with the anti tank Stryker variant.
Garrand
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Posted: Friday, July 19, 2019 - 05:12 AM UTC
I think that while the Stryker could be used in an anti-tank role, the chassis is too light for anything more aggressive than targets-of-opportunity. If a T-55 happens to show itself to the sights of the gunner, then take the shot. But don't go out seeking one. Also IIRC when firing the 105mm the vehicle had some stability issues, so I have some doubts about any fire-on-the-move capability. I also wonder how flexible the auto-loader is; FREX can you switch out an HE shell for an APDS when you want? Or are you stuck with it when you select the round?

Damon.
Removed by original poster on 07/22/19 - 15:21:22 (GMT).
GregCopplin
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Posted: Friday, July 19, 2019 - 02:16 PM UTC

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105s are effective against tanks from the T-72 lineage. Modern sabot rounds are not defeated by ERA bricks.

There are also a lot of IFV vehicles on the modern battlefield as well as wheeled armored vehicles like the Centauro and Stryker MGS.

105 equipped tanks can handle these threats with ease.



When i was at Stryker leader course they told us the MGS was not to be used to fight tanks and that it was an infantry support weapon, in essence a door knocker. But after talking to some of the armor officers they agreed that you could technically shoot some vehicles such as bmps and btrs but that you were to not try and pick a fight with tanks. I do believe that the MGS could be used as an ambush weapon that shoots and scoots, essentially a modern day stug in some respects but they made it sound as if the only thing you’d do was get a mobility kill on anything bigger then a T-62



What I was saying is that a 105 is more than enough to take on a Stryker MGS type vehicle like a Centauro or like the MGS or whatever foreign equivalent there is.

While a Stryker MGS would get pwnd by an actual MBT, it could win in the ambush mode you mention. The problem is that tanks often operate in at least a platoon formation. It gets one tank, the others get him unless they were also employed in platoon formation and not parceled out one gun per infantry platoon.



So the way they operate is that the mgs and and atgm Stryker variants are all apart of the heavy weapons section. So there may only be 10 per a brigade, the problem here is that they are tasked to either the decisive operation or a shaping operation, in the defense it’ll more likely then not be parceled out with an atgm Stryker and sometimes a recon Stryker to form a hunter killer type team. That’s to make use of the surveillance equipment they have to trigger and develop a situation to hit quick and then withdraw.

The Stryker from what I’ve been told is great in the defense and not so great in the offense when using traditional armor/ blitzkrieg type tactics
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 01:42 PM UTC
The whole point of my post is that 105mm gunned tanks can still hold their own against cannon armed wheeled vehicles, BMP style or other foreign IFVs.

Many modern armies are using lighter, more deployable armor. Older 105mm and 115mm gunned tanks are still capable to defeat these quick response forces.

Plus they have the advantage of being on home turf.
TopSmith
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Posted: Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 02:09 PM UTC
I do not know if the MGS has the same 105 that the M60A3 does. A recoilless 105 is not the same beast the latest 105 firing the Uranium round was yet both were 105mms.
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 03:21 PM UTC
It has a modified 105 based on the same gum used on our older 60 series tanks.
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