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Recycled M4A2s
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
KitMaker: 1,124 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 21, 2019 - 12:43 AM UTC
My Sherman streak continues. Have a Asuka Sherman III DV gonna be landing in my mailbox Monday. Planning on building it as a remanned one with the 1st French Armored Div. Got all the applique armor and rear rack figured out. Thing I'm in a bit of a quandary about is the turret. I know the 75mm turrets were fitted with a loaders hatch. Fisher got a bunch of old turrets (300?) from the M32 conversion program. They fitted them with the all around vision commander's cupola. My understanding is these were allotted to M4A3s for US use. Anybody happen to know if any of these got to the French? Or should I just stick with the split TCs hatch and oval loaders hatch?
cheyenne
Joined: January 05, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, December 21, 2019 - 01:37 AM UTC
Tim , no expert here but off the top of my head I thought the 1st , 2nd , 3rd , 4th French armored divisions were early 40's pre occupation armored divisions . Do you mean the Free French 2nd armored division post D-Day which was equiped with Shermans ?
panamadan
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,513 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 21, 2019 - 01:43 AM UTC
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 21, 2019 - 01:56 AM UTC
The M4A2 has been used by five Free French armor units :
501e Régiment de Chars de Combat, 5th, 6th and 12th Régiments de Chasseurs d'Afrique, 12th Régiment de Cuirassiers.
Here you'll find the register of French Army Shermans (all versions) listed by names (click on the name to see pics) :
http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/classement-individuel/m-4-sherman
H.P.
501e Régiment de Chars de Combat, 5th, 6th and 12th Régiments de Chasseurs d'Afrique, 12th Régiment de Cuirassiers.
Here you'll find the register of French Army Shermans (all versions) listed by names (click on the name to see pics) :
http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/classement-individuel/m-4-sherman
H.P.
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
KitMaker: 1,124 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 22, 2019 - 09:40 PM UTC
I guess I should have been more precise. I meant 1st FREE French Armored. Figured that seeing
the French didn't have Shermans in 1940 (nor did anybody else for that matter) that part was a no brainer. I've been referencing the Sherman minutia site . They are were I got the info on the rebuilt M4s and the remanned turrets that Fisher had. From what I read they used those for M4A3 production. What I am trying to figure out if anybody else made recycled D50878 turrets with the 360 vision cupola? And is their any proof the FREE French get any? Specifically 2ème Régiment de Cuirassiers, 1ère Division Blindée. (1ère Division Blindée had spiffy markings.) Oh! Anybody have a set of Tasca/ Asuka T49 tracks they'd be willing to swap for a set of T51s?
the French didn't have Shermans in 1940 (nor did anybody else for that matter) that part was a no brainer. I've been referencing the Sherman minutia site . They are were I got the info on the rebuilt M4s and the remanned turrets that Fisher had. From what I read they used those for M4A3 production. What I am trying to figure out if anybody else made recycled D50878 turrets with the 360 vision cupola? And is their any proof the FREE French get any? Specifically 2ème Régiment de Cuirassiers, 1ère Division Blindée. (1ère Division Blindée had spiffy markings.) Oh! Anybody have a set of Tasca/ Asuka T49 tracks they'd be willing to swap for a set of T51s?
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 12:17 AM UTC
While I don't think there were any other recycled turrets until the MAP overhauls post-war, the cupolas were interchangeable so it is possible that FF tanks might get an ad hoc upgrade in the field. Vision cupolas would have been found on the M4 105 and the 76mm tanks with T23 turret (M4A1 & M4A3 hulls) so cupolas might have been available. But I haven't seen such an upgrade of a 75mm M4A2. And I seriously doubt there would be any retro-fit of a loader's hatch on the 75mm turrets, given how short a lifespan tanks had in '44-'45.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 01:57 AM UTC
I stand corrected : the 2ème Régiment de Cuirassiers had some M4A2's as well...
Here are two examples :
H.P.
Here are two examples :
H.P.
b2nhvi
Joined: June 17, 2016
KitMaker: 1,124 posts
Armorama: 1,014 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 - 03:26 AM UTC
Been going over and over (and over .....) the info on these turrets. As near as I can figure Fisher rebuilt 300 old 75 mm turrets, adding the loaders hatch, M34A1 gun mount, cheek armor ,spot light, smoke mortar, and storage for the M2. All of these went to Fisher produced M4A3s. There were low and high bustle turrets made with the loader's hatch but they were ones with the extra cheek armor cast in them. Soooo .... I'm thinking on the rebuilt ones the French received in late 44 / early 45 had the mods except the loaders hatch.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 - 10:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Been going over and over (and over .....) the info on these turrets. As near as I can figure Fisher rebuilt 300 old 75 mm turrets, adding the loaders hatch, M34A1 gun mount, cheek armor ,spot light, smoke mortar, and storage for the M2. All of these went to Fisher produced M4A3s. There were low and high bustle turrets made with the loader's hatch but they were ones with the extra cheek armor cast in them. Soooo .... I'm thinking on the rebuilt ones the French received in late 44 / early 45 had the mods except the loaders hatch.
I think your final analysis is correct, if the Free French got any remanufactured early M4A2's they would follow the standard rebuild pattern.
Keep in mind that by 1944 the bulk of the M4A2's were going to the Soviets and there might not be any available for the Free French.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 26, 2019 - 09:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My Sherman streak continues. Have a Asuka Sherman III DV gonna be landing in my mailbox Monday. Planning on building it as a remanned one with the 1st French Armored Div. Got all the applique armor and rear rack figured out. Thing I'm in a bit of a quandary about is the turret. I know the 75mm turrets were fitted with a loaders hatch. Fisher got a bunch of old turrets (300?) from the M32 conversion program. They fitted them with the all around vision commander's cupola. My understanding is these were allotted to M4A3s for US use. Anybody happen to know if any of these got to the French? Or should I just stick with the split TCs hatch and oval loaders hatch?
The US did not supply the Free French with M4A2's, the British did, prior to D-Day. When the campaign actually got under way, the Free French were in the US operational area, and got US replacement tanks (M4, M4A1, M4A3), which meant they had the worst of all possible worlds, as they had to maintain spare parts for all Sherman variants (except the M4A6).
Fisher was installing the rebuilt low-bustle turrets on new tanks, not rebuilds, in late 1944 and early 1945. They have been photographed on M4A3(75) wet-stowage tanks and M4A3(75) wet-stowage with HVSS. Never seen that turret on anything else. Since the purpose of the turret recycling program was to alleviate pressure on the steel foundries, which were operating at capacity, it wouldn't make sense to install these turrets on tanks that already had serviceable turret castings.
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