This is Yu Fan version for $8.62:
And here is Legend Productions kit for $18.00:
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Epi
Joined: December 22, 2001
KitMaker: 3,586 posts
Armorama: 2,556 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 06:17 AM UTC
I see Yu Fan is at again in taking others work and selling it as their own.
This is Yu Fan version for $8.62:
And here is Legend Productions kit for $18.00:
This is Yu Fan version for $8.62:
And here is Legend Productions kit for $18.00:
terminators
Joined: February 20, 2012
KitMaker: 1,932 posts
Armorama: 1,907 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 06:46 AM UTC
Well, definitely a bad brand to avoid. Counterfeiting is a new event in modelling sector. I hope this is the only brand who is concerned.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 07:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, definitely a bad brand to avoid. Counterfeiting is a new event in modelling sector. I hope this is the only brand who is concerned.
I believe Alpine Miniatures have had some figure parts reused to create figures from another brand but I can't remember who now.
dhines
Joined: November 17, 2015
KitMaker: 407 posts
Armorama: 373 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 09:21 AM UTC
It is sad guys, but there are a lot of fraudsters on the net. The cheap prices are usually the 1st giveaway.
Jmarles
Joined: November 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,138 posts
Armorama: 953 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 11:49 AM UTC
There are hundreds of Chinese knockoffs on ebay, etsy and alibaba of most of the manufacturers. To answer the other poster's question, CMK who are regarded as legitimate, regularly rip off Alpine and others for their resin line .
Mrclark7
Joined: June 04, 2017
KitMaker: 503 posts
Armorama: 477 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 04:55 PM UTC
Reminds me of my green army guy from the 70s after a day with the magnifying glass.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 - 05:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, definitely a bad brand to avoid. Counterfeiting is a new event in modelling sector. I hope this is the only brand who is concerned.
Decades ago Trumpeter counterfeited Tamiya's T-72. I got a hold of one those kits. The instructions were photocopies of Tamiyas.
Namabiiru
Associate Editor
#399
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,888 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 01:34 AM UTC
I don't know. the poses are of course very similar, but I'm seeing enough subtle differences between the two (the skull face aside) that it doesn't look like a direct knock-off to me, Clearly based on the Legend fig for sure. Of course, I'm not on expert on resin figures and counterfeiting them, so just my $0.02...
iam2brb
Joined: December 31, 2016
KitMaker: 136 posts
Armorama: 95 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 01:48 AM UTC
Looks to me like the head and the hands are the only differences.
Grenade throwing zombies?
Grenade throwing zombies?
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 02:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Grenade throwing zombies?
So you are questioning their weapons and mobility? I think once you cross the line and accept zombie-ism, you kinda have lost the "suspension of reality" battle.
KL
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 02:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I don't know. the poses are of course very similar, but I'm seeing enough subtle differences between the two (the skull face aside) that it doesn't look like a direct knock-off to me, Clearly based on the Legend fig for sure. Of course, I'm not on expert on resin figures and counterfeiting them, so just my $0.02...
I sat down with a copyright lawyer to find out what was legal. Say, taking a Tamiya tank hull and using it as a pattern. What was required at that time, late 1990's, was a 10% change from the original. So that figure could be a copy, but has it been altered 10%? That does not make it right even if legal.
Namabiiru
Associate Editor#399
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,888 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 02:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Looks to me like the head and the hands are the only differences.
Grenade throwing zombies?
Also web gear, comm gear, and angles of the feet.
C[]
arpikaszabo
Joined: February 13, 2006
KitMaker: 674 posts
Armorama: 637 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 03:03 AM UTC
Half of the figure is from the Legend kit- the entire lower half and the arms.
This case is quite egregious.
Now the question is, how much "copying" can be tolerated. There are many conversions, when they use e.g. the turret as a master, add a few details and put it on the market (naturally it wont fit, since the resin shrinks 10%).
I got burned once by a more "legitimate" company, who sold an aftermarket wheel set, which was a total copy of the kit wheel, just with a not particularly good bulge made by heating the plastic of the master.
This case is quite egregious.
Now the question is, how much "copying" can be tolerated. There are many conversions, when they use e.g. the turret as a master, add a few details and put it on the market (naturally it wont fit, since the resin shrinks 10%).
I got burned once by a more "legitimate" company, who sold an aftermarket wheel set, which was a total copy of the kit wheel, just with a not particularly good bulge made by heating the plastic of the master.
JohnTapsell
Joined: August 24, 2011
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 226 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 05:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well, definitely a bad brand to avoid. Counterfeiting is a new event in modelling sector. I hope this is the only brand who is concerned.
Sadly - counterfeiting has been prevalent in the modelling sector for many years. The large scale vinyl and resin figures popular with the sci-fi and fantasy crowd for example, have been regular targets of knock-offs for the past 20 years or more.
Similarly, you can easily pick up 1/35 scale resin figures off ebay and other auction sites that are straight copies of reputable brands.
Regards,
John
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 06:04 AM UTC
So what are folks here actually upset about?
1) I don't see that there is actually much harm or threat to Legend: Just looking at the photos shows me that I would much prefer buying the Legend item at a higher price if I am looking for a great SEAL figure. I doubt that Legend is actually losing any sales to the less-precise and rather altered Zombie "copy" (unless - undisclosed in this thread - Legend actually IS producing that zombie figure... In which case, of course, this entire discussion being aired is disingenuous.), and as Legend doesn't, FAIK, produce any such "grenade-throwing Zombie" figure... It probably has no real or obvious practical impact on Legend's business or market.
2) Does anyone actually KNOW whether the folks at Legend are even much concerned about this? THAT would be the best measure of whether there is anything here worth being excited about. That would of course be the matter of copyright law - a very complicated field, for sure.
3) Copying other's creations and products has been around forever. Making (sometimes shoddy) copies of other's fine work is "legion". The discerning buyer can usually identify what he or she really wants out of it.
Lots of model companies make kits of the same subject - each kit is usually only slightly different - offering some different detail or finish option or a slightly different engineering approach to some (features) - all modern Panther kits look pretty much like Panthers - G's like G's, most interiors when offered are pretty much the same, etc. Do folks see anyone carping about some company copying some other's Panther kit? I'm sure that kit makers, like auto makers, are constantly watching for what others make, and evaluating whether they too want to make something close in most ways to that other guy's kit. You kit buyers probably compare among the offered kits and choose which one(s) you will buy.
4) Now, IF this Chinese company took Legend's SEAL figure and simply used it as a master and sold direct molded copies of same, there would be some obvious cause for outrage, damage to Legend, and obvious grounds for lawsuits. Same as for those who take a Louis Vuitton hand-bag and make a copy, complete with labels, and sell it on the street. But you cannot really copyright a rather nice pose - it's a realistic human figure in a realistic human pose that lots of grenade - throwers go thru as they cast their bombs forth. Like "all" modern Panther kits looking about the same, "all" grenade-thrower figures will look, well, like guys throwing grenades. The variety, in detail, is nearly infinite, but the general form is pretty standard.
The Chinese copy pictured in this thread is, in my eyes, a pretty mediocre partial knock-off of an excellent Legend figure. It may appeal to some - but those buyers probably wouldn't be the folks buying the Legend figure anyway. So I personally don't see much to be excited about!
Of course, this is my OPINION. Cheers! Bob
1) I don't see that there is actually much harm or threat to Legend: Just looking at the photos shows me that I would much prefer buying the Legend item at a higher price if I am looking for a great SEAL figure. I doubt that Legend is actually losing any sales to the less-precise and rather altered Zombie "copy" (unless - undisclosed in this thread - Legend actually IS producing that zombie figure... In which case, of course, this entire discussion being aired is disingenuous.), and as Legend doesn't, FAIK, produce any such "grenade-throwing Zombie" figure... It probably has no real or obvious practical impact on Legend's business or market.
2) Does anyone actually KNOW whether the folks at Legend are even much concerned about this? THAT would be the best measure of whether there is anything here worth being excited about. That would of course be the matter of copyright law - a very complicated field, for sure.
3) Copying other's creations and products has been around forever. Making (sometimes shoddy) copies of other's fine work is "legion". The discerning buyer can usually identify what he or she really wants out of it.
Lots of model companies make kits of the same subject - each kit is usually only slightly different - offering some different detail or finish option or a slightly different engineering approach to some (features) - all modern Panther kits look pretty much like Panthers - G's like G's, most interiors when offered are pretty much the same, etc. Do folks see anyone carping about some company copying some other's Panther kit? I'm sure that kit makers, like auto makers, are constantly watching for what others make, and evaluating whether they too want to make something close in most ways to that other guy's kit. You kit buyers probably compare among the offered kits and choose which one(s) you will buy.
4) Now, IF this Chinese company took Legend's SEAL figure and simply used it as a master and sold direct molded copies of same, there would be some obvious cause for outrage, damage to Legend, and obvious grounds for lawsuits. Same as for those who take a Louis Vuitton hand-bag and make a copy, complete with labels, and sell it on the street. But you cannot really copyright a rather nice pose - it's a realistic human figure in a realistic human pose that lots of grenade - throwers go thru as they cast their bombs forth. Like "all" modern Panther kits looking about the same, "all" grenade-thrower figures will look, well, like guys throwing grenades. The variety, in detail, is nearly infinite, but the general form is pretty standard.
The Chinese copy pictured in this thread is, in my eyes, a pretty mediocre partial knock-off of an excellent Legend figure. It may appeal to some - but those buyers probably wouldn't be the folks buying the Legend figure anyway. So I personally don't see much to be excited about!
Of course, this is my OPINION. Cheers! Bob
JPTRR
Managing Editor
#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 7,772 posts
Armorama: 2,447 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 06:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Counterfeiting is a new event in modelling sector. I hope this is the only brand who is concerned.
Armor35 is being pirated, too. I've spotted their models counterfeited in China on eBay. The crooks even use Armor35's box art. They said there isn't much that can be done with crooks inside the PRC.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 07:06 AM UTC
I've got to say I'm amazed by some of the responses. You lot waffle on about wanting detail in your kits and you can't even see that virtually all of this figure has been reproduced, the folds in the clothing , the equipment on the arms, legs, the torso, with something added at the neckline, and a gun hung on the front. Gun removed and hand replaced, along with the skull, which wouldn't surprise me if that's ripped off from someone else as well.
If you can't see this then you don't deserve to describe yourselves as modellers who want and have an eye for detail, and if you consider buying this rip off then you deserve to have someone else receive your hard earned wages instead of you because that's what this amounts to.
It may not be on the scale of most blatant rip offs selling on Ebay etc, direct copies
but its just as despicable.
If you can't see this then you don't deserve to describe yourselves as modellers who want and have an eye for detail, and if you consider buying this rip off then you deserve to have someone else receive your hard earned wages instead of you because that's what this amounts to.
It may not be on the scale of most blatant rip offs selling on Ebay etc, direct copies
but its just as despicable.
nikon1
Joined: April 11, 2005
KitMaker: 622 posts
Armorama: 605 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 08:30 AM UTC
What you can has done is perfectly legal whether you like I bbn or not. Under copyright laws an individual is allowed to modify an item and sell it as their own. An individual cannot copy an item and sell it as their own.
Cheers
Charlie
Cheers
Charlie
CMOT
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 08:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I've got to say I'm amazed by some of the responses. You lot waffle on about wanting detail in your kits and you can't even see that virtually all of this figure has been reproduced, the folds in the clothing , the equipment on the arms, legs, the torso, with something added at the neckline, and a gun hung on the front. Gun removed and hand replaced, along with the skull, which wouldn't surprise me if that's ripped off from someone else as well.
If you can't see this then you don't deserve to describe yourselves as modellers who want and have an eye for detail, and if you consider buying this rip off then you deserve to have someone else receive your hard earned wages instead of you because that's what this amounts to.
It may not be on the scale of most blatant rip offs selling on Ebay etc, direct copies
but its just as despicable.
I would normally agree but this item even though mostly a copy is not going or likely to appeal to the same customers for each item. Yes it is obvious that very little has been done as regards changes to the model, but the changes do mean the appeal is very different.
Maki
Senior Editor
Joined: February 13, 2002
KitMaker: 5,579 posts
Armorama: 2,988 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 08:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What you can has done is perfectly legal whether you like I bbn or not. Under copyright laws an individual is allowed to modify an item and sell it as their own.
I think it depends on the degree of modification. This miniature is almost an exact copy of Legend's figure, with only about 5% modification. Many Yu Fan figures are the same... produced by mixing and matching parts of other company's figures. The "Frankenstein-figures" made in that way usually have flawed proportions and awkward poses.
An Eastern European company was selling figures made using Alpine Miniatures figure pieces. Taesung, the owner of Alpine, managed to put a stop on it. It is definitely an illegal practice.
Mario
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 08:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I've got to say I'm amazed by some of the responses. You lot waffle on about wanting detail in your kits and you can't even see that virtually all of this figure has been reproduced, the folds in the clothing , the equipment on the arms, legs, the torso, with something added at the neckline, and a gun hung on the front. Gun removed and hand replaced, along with the skull, which wouldn't surprise me if that's ripped off from someone else as well.
If you can't see this then you don't deserve to describe yourselves as modellers who want and have an eye for detail, and if you consider buying this rip off then you deserve to have someone else receive your hard earned wages instead of you because that's what this amounts to.
It may not be on the scale of most blatant rip offs selling on Ebay etc, direct copies
but its just as despicable.
AlanM;
You identified a crucial point... "...wanting detail in your kits...". ONLY someone who really isn't much interested in any of that FINE DETAIL would bother buying one of these shoddy knock-offs over buying the Legend original. ANYONE looking to get a great-looking, finely done figure will, I presume, actually do some shopping around to see what he can get. "Copies" such as that posted in this thread do NOT compare under even rudimentary inspection with the original. The buyers of these shoddy knock-offs are not getting anything that more then generally resembles the original. It's like saying that you "want" a nice Italian filled-pastry, but you'll gladly settle for a Twinkie because that mess costs only half as much.
I cannot speak for anyone else's shopping or buying habits on about anything, whether it be hobby figurines, kits, food, automobiles, tools, or whatever... But MY APPROACH to all of these things amounts to deciding WHAT I WANT FIRST, and then shopping around to get that something for the best overall price. And if what I want is a great figure of, say, some guy throwing a grenade... I have zero doubt that I would look at that Legend figure and clearly see that it is, by far, the best depiction (posted) of that. That is the one I'll buy. I know that some folks value money over what it is they think that they "want" in a good, and those folks will say something like "Hey! Here's a cheaper figure! I'll get this one!" Clearly that buyer is someone who actually doesn't really care about detail or quality - simply wants "a figure of some sort". The copy-cats count on such non-discerning buyers being out there - and there are. Anyone who really cares about what they GET for their money, and who really cares about getting what they WANT, will skip this shoddy knock-off. Even if it's "1/2 price", it's akin to paying that money for TRASH.
And again, I doubt Legend is concerned about this copy. The folks who would buy that are not the folks looking to buy Legend's high-quality stuff. They aren't losing these buyers, as they are not among those who they ever actually had.
Just sayin'!
Cheers! Bob
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 3,033 posts
Armorama: 2,953 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 10:44 AM UTC
You assume quite a lot in your post there Bob, and you miss the point which is a pretty obvious one so I'll leave it at that. I'm out.
babaoriley
Joined: June 23, 2017
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 179 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 11:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWell, definitely a bad brand to avoid. Counterfeiting is a new event in modelling sector. I hope this is the only brand who is concerned.
Decades ago Trumpeter counterfeited Tamiya's T-72. I got a hold of one those kits. The instructions were photocopies of Tamiyas.
When Chinese companies first began selling internationally in a big way they had no conception of trademarks, copyright etc. So one company making batteries figured since Eveready was a popular brand, they would just call their brand Eveready with the same logo etc. It had to be pointed out to them somebody owned that brand name and could and would have shipments of faux Eveready batteries seized by customs.
At this point anyone in China or elsewhere still doing something like this isn't ignorant or confused, they're willfully stealing someone else's product. I hope nobody here would take advantage of these pirate products just to save a few bucks.
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 02:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextWell, definitely a bad brand to avoid. Counterfeiting is a new event in modelling sector. I hope this is the only brand who is concerned.
Decades ago Trumpeter counterfeited Tamiya's T-72. I got a hold of one those kits. The instructions were photocopies of Tamiyas.
When Chinese companies first began selling internationally in a big way they had no conception of trademarks, copyright etc. So one company making batteries figured since Eveready was a popular brand, they would just call their brand Eveready with the same logo etc. It had to be pointed out to them somebody owned that brand name and could and would have shipments of faux Eveready batteries seized by customs.
At this point anyone in China or elsewhere still doing something like this isn't ignorant or confused, they're willfully stealing someone else's product. I hope nobody here would take advantage of these pirate products just to save a few bucks.
The Chinese (and many other nations AND cultures across history) have never had much interest in nor care about "copyright" - copying other's creations is an accepted cultural norm. They still don't care about this matter.
This would be more of an issue were the "copies" actually very good copies... Chinese make batteries. The real question is whether those fake "Eveready" batteries actually are near as good as the genuine article. And yes, it's obvious that many folks will apparently knowingly buy fakes to save a buck or 3. But, at least in our specific "copy" case, the fake is quite obviously NOT a high-quality copy of the posted original. Anyone can see the difference and do a self-sorting; "Do I want a great - looking figure or do I not care what the figure looks like?"
It's not always obvious that a fake is a fake - A fake Eveready battery may well appear to be the real thing. And sad to say, many retailers willingly market fakes to make a buck. The buyer may be unable to tell which battery is real. That's where we need to depend on our laws and customs. The posted "copy" figure, on the other hand, IS pretty self-evident. Each "copy case" is thus potentially different. The flap here is about a clearly-lower-quality fake that any discerning buyer can recognize.
Perhaps the problem isn't actually the copying... It is, in part, that many buyers are willing to buy fakes KNOWING that they are buying a fake. That, and retailers willingly buy and sell fakes. That will never change, long as humanity lasts.
PS: We should not confuse ourselves about copies, emulations, and "piracy". Hollywood has sold us on copying music and video CD's and the like as being "piracy". If you watch an illegal or unlicensed copy of a movie CD, it looks like the licensed copy. Because it is made using the same technology as used to make legit copies of that movie CD. Almost no viewer can tell the difference between the real and the illegal copy. Someone who sells these CD copies is ripping off the original artists - that seller is placing illegal copies on the market and the buyers who knowingly buy these illegal copies are conspiring with the seller to rip off the original maker.
The illegal movie copy is more like a well-done counterfeit dollar bill then it is like the sort of "copying" we are talking about here. While the Yu Fan figure bears some semblance to the Legend figure, nobody would say that it was any sort of GOOD or "faithful" copy of that original. Because the "copy" does not actually faithfully emulate the original, and buyers can recognize that as they willingly buy that fake, we are realistically talking about something other then a guy who buys a "discount" copy of Star Wars. That buyer is willfully cheating the Star Wars artists out of their product and their money. The guy who buys the shoddy fake figure is just a guy who doesn't want to spend money to get a GOOD figure - a guy who doesn't really care what type of figure he buys. I personally would wonder what that buyer actually wanted out of his purchase. Wanting "quality" obviously isn't his driver. But his buying a shoddy semi-copy is much less damaging to anyone, I think.
Just my opinion, of course!
Bob
Mortifa
#464
Joined: December 02, 2016
KitMaker: 267 posts
Armorama: 196 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 - 04:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Looks to me like the head and the hands are the only differences.
Grenade throwing zombies?
We need a 1/35 figure of Ash from Army of Darkness
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