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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Panther hatches in combat?
phil2015
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Illinois, United States
Joined: July 27, 2015
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Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 03:01 PM UTC
Building my first Panther...

In combat would any of the hatches be open? I've already glued the driver's view hatch on the front glacis open. Would it ever be open when the tank was in battle?

How about the hatch on the commander's cupola?

I'm wondering if I should keep the top hatch open and put a commander figure sitting outside or just button the rest of it up?

Thanks,
Phil
jps
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Wisconsin, United States
Joined: February 06, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 03:53 PM UTC
I have been in a couple of WWII tanks and the vision is not good. The commander may want to be able to peek out the hatch but he probably won't want to be hanging all the way out the hatch in battle but some commanders may. Barely peeking over the rim of the hatch is good. Sticking his head out far enough to see with binoculars is good. Having his head below the hatch is good. Having the hatch closed to avoid air blasts is good. So I guess most anything is feasible but to communicate the fact that you are in battle the commander is probably not hanging too far out of he hatch.
GeraldOwens
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 05:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Building my first Panther...

In combat would any of the hatches be open? I've already glued the driver's view hatch on the front glacis open. Would it ever be open when the tank was in battle?

How about the hatch on the commander's cupola?

I'm wondering if I should keep the top hatch open and put a commander figure sitting outside or just button the rest of it up?

Thanks,
Phil

The lift and swivel design of the hull hatches made some crews nervous. In some units, crews of Panther D and A tanks refused to close the driver's and radio operator's hatches at all. If the hull sustained a hit and was torqued (twisted), the round openings that the swivel posts turned in would become oval instead of round, and pinch the posts, locking them in place, and trapping the crewmen. The driver's vision port on the D and A was usually closed in action (and even if open, all you'd see is the armor glass vision block)
The hatches were redesigned on the G model to use simple flap hinges (and even these had quick release pins on the hinges that allowed the hatch to be simply punched open from below in an emergency).
chris1
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Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: October 25, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 05:56 PM UTC
Have a dig around on you tube for The Chieftains Hatch. The Chieftain, Nicholas Moran a serving US Army Armour Officer who works for World of Tanks,he reviews(sic) various tanks,part of his spiel is what he calls 'The Oh Bugger the tank is on fire' test where there is much merriment as he tries to exit a tank quickly,He does one episode which is sort of a comparison Panther, T-34,Sherman. The Sherman Spring loaded hatches win by a country mile and leaves thinking 'what were they thinking when they designed this.
wedgetail53
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Queensland, Australia
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Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 08:40 PM UTC
G'day Phil

Please note that even if the hatches are open, the radio operator's seat cannot be elevated, so his head would not be outside the hatch, and as for the driver, the only German tanks on which the driver could raise his seat to see out were the late Panther G, Panther F, and King Tiger.

Regards

Rob
Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
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Posted: Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 10:26 PM UTC
I wasn't there nor have I read anything in particular on that topic, but considering the shape of the Panther's massive mantlet and the fact it is likely to receive some hits in combat, I don't think it would be a good idea to have the hatches of the radio operator/ driver open. They sit just beneath (and slightly forward) of the mantlet...
Oelfass
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: February 05, 2008
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2020 - 01:00 AM UTC
Mr. Moran makes a convincing argument in his Panther video that the cupola hatch would rarely be fully closed, since the lid provides lots of protection and allows full vision in the "half-open" position, i.e. with the lid above the opening but slightly elevated. From this position it would also be a lot faster get the hatch fully open in an emergency.

Philipp
Scarred
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Washington, United States
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2020 - 01:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I wasn't there nor have I read anything in particular on that topic, but considering the shape of the Panther's massive mantlet and the fact it is likely to receive some hits in combat, I don't think it would be a good idea to have the hatches of the radio operator/ driver open. They sit just beneath (and slightly forward) of the mantlet...


Hence the development of the "chin" on the mantlet of late G models.
Bonaparte84
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Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2020 - 01:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I wasn't there nor have I read anything in particular on that topic, but considering the shape of the Panther's massive mantlet and the fact it is likely to receive some hits in combat, I don't think it would be a good idea to have the hatches of the radio operator/ driver open. They sit just beneath (and slightly forward) of the mantlet...


Hence the development of the "chin" on the mantlet of late G models.


Of course, but even with that, anything exploding on the mantlet is likely to send shrapnel/blast down into the operators' compartments, which would not be harmful/lethal with the hatches closed. My point is not so much the notorious shot trap, but merely the fact that the mantlet on the Panther is huge, and surely it is not a good idea to sit just a meter away in an unprotected fashion from something that is likely to receive many hits, even more so where the object in question is one tough piece of armor and will deflect it all.
Johnnych01
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2020 - 01:42 AM UTC
If it wasnt a SOP then any crewman with an ounce of common sense will have his hatch closed in a combat situation. In close/urban combat this would be an absolute must. The Commander may have his open or slightly open for spacial awareness of his surroundings and to give movement directions to his driver who would be buttoned up but everyone else should be in tight with hatches closed.

Our training made it clear that no commander should never have more than the top of his shoulders above cupola level. this was to prevent giving our position away, and to give a minimal target profile for snipers/small arms fire etc.
Bravo36
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Arizona, United States
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2020 - 01:47 AM UTC
You’ll find a lot of photos of German tank commanders with head wounds as they spent so much time with just their heads sticking out of their hatches so they could see better.
jrutman
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Pennsylvania, United States
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Posted: Friday, March 06, 2020 - 02:21 AM UTC
I have read many many personal anecdotes from German crewman that stated the old veterans would keep the hatches either open or unlocked. They viewed the fast exit from the tank as a priority above all else. Also read that a lot of the TCs kept the cupola hatch open for better visibility,but they did stay down low,specially the alte haase. They knew what would help keep them alive a bit longer.
J
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