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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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When The Germans Left Greece In 1944
long_tom
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Posted: Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 05:03 PM UTC
I suppose they purposely left their big weapons behind with the idea that the Greek factions would end up fighting each other and allow the Germans to flee unmolested, even though the Germans made life hell for the Greeks? That's the impression I got from what I've read about the German occupation.
varanusk
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Posted: Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 11:26 PM UTC
I doubt any Army would leave intact and on purpose their heavy weapons to their enemy. In fact usually there are regulations to destroy them in case they have to be abandoned.
GTDeath13
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 12:29 AM UTC
I cant recall of seeing photos of German heavy equipment being used after the Germans left, even in the civil war that followed WWII. I have seen a couple of italian armored vehicles, Shermans, armored cars but not German made stuff.

Perhaps some artillery pieces but I am no expert on that.

Light equipment such as MP40s,rifles, grenades and pistols were definately used.
alanmac
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 03:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I suppose they purposely left their big weapons behind with the idea that the Greek factions would end up fighting each other and allow the Germans to flee unmolested, even though the Germans made life hell for the Greeks? That's the impression I got from what I've read about the German occupation.



Where did you read this and get your information from?
HermannB
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 03:59 AM UTC
I wonder why we should leave tanks and guns behind when they were needed on other fronts?
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 04:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I wonder why we should leave tanks and guns behind when they were needed on other fronts?


Too difficult to move, they might have been worn out after several years, and they might also have been outdated?
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 04:26 AM UTC
The Germans withdrawn from Greece for the fear of being cut off from their forces further north after the Red Army entered Romania. Since their withdrawal was organized and relatively unmolested, I don't see why they would leave all of their heavy equipment behind.
alanmac
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 04:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I suppose they purposely left their big weapons behind with the idea that the Greek factions would end up fighting each other and allow the Germans to flee unmolested, even though the Germans made life hell for the Greeks? That's the impression I got from what I've read about the German occupation.



Where did you read this and get your information from?



Still haven't answered my question.

ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 04:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

they might also have been outdated?



During the very same period of the withdrawal from Greece, some front line German units in the thick of the action in North Western Europe were using seriously outdated French equipment captured in 1940 for the lack of any better option.
alanmac
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 04:53 AM UTC
Folks, don't bother posting, it's just another of Tom's waste of time posted topics.

You can't name the source for your statement that started your thread and I'm guessing because there isn't one.

So what is it Tom, do you get some sort of thrill out of seeing your posting numbers go up, or a kick out of people wasting their time replying to your posts. Either way it's pretty sad.
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 05:46 AM UTC
If my posts bother you so much, you seriously need help.
Scarred
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 06:16 AM UTC
I don't believe the Germans would leave that much heavy armaments behind intact for enemy use. The were usually pretty thorough about destroying anything useful when withdrawing. They blew up their tanks that they couldn't salvage after Kursk, destroyed port facilities as they withdrew from western Europe and destroyed train tracks and anything else useful as they withdrew from the eastern front. Unless they were caught with their pants down and ran before they could destroy their gear. Maybe the Greeks captured some during the pullout.
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 06:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't believe the Germans would leave that much heavy armaments behind intact for enemy use. The were usually pretty thorough about destroying anything useful when withdrawing. They blew up their tanks that they couldn't salvage after Kursk, destroyed port facilities as they withdrew from western Europe and destroyed train tracks and anything else useful as they withdrew from the eastern front. Unless they were caught with their pants down and ran before they could destroy their gear. Maybe the Greeks captured some during the pullout.


I was thinking along the lines that they knew the Greeks were very busy fighting one another, and they might have left a few items on purpose to make trouble while they sneaked out.
DanEgan
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 07:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I was thinking along the lines that they knew the Greeks were very busy fighting one another, and they might have left a few items on purpose to make trouble while they sneaked out.



More precisely, the Greeks that had fought against the Nazis were fighting against the Greeks who had supported the Nazis. This second group had the support of the British. Very ugly civil war with fallout that remained for decades.

But I've never heard of any significant amount of German heavy equipment being left behind.
GTDeath13
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 07:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text


More precisely, the Greeks that had fought against the Nazis were fighting against the Greeks who had supported the Nazis. This second group had the support of the British. Very ugly civil war with fallout that remained for decades.



This is totaly false. Civil war was the culmination of communist activities during and after the war in conjuction with the decisions made by politicians and military leaders plus British involvement in the same affairs.
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 08:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


More precisely, the Greeks that had fought against the Nazis were fighting against the Greeks who had supported the Nazis. This second group had the support of the British. Very ugly civil war with fallout that remained for decades.



This is totaly false. Civil war was the culmination of communist activities during and after the war in conjuction with the decisions made by politicians and military leaders plus British involvement in the same affairs.


So the Communists presumably had little indigenous support.
GTDeath13
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 08:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


So the Communists presumably had little indigenous support.



This is not the best place to discuss such matters.

Communist guerilla groups used volunteers that joined either by their will or by "persuasion". People helped them because they thought that their enemy was the Germans, not groups with different political views, as it proved after the Germans left.

There are many unpleasant aspects in this story, from all sides involved and it is not a pleasant subject for me personnaly.
alanmac
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 08:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If my posts bother you so much, you seriously need help.



You still haven't stated your source for the original premise you started this thread with.

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 09:56 AM UTC
I strongly doubt there are any reliable sources for the claim that servicable equipment was left behind on purpose.
"On 20 August 1944, the Red Army invaded Romania.[138] The Romanian Army collapsed, the German 6th Army was encircled and destroyed while the German 8th Army retreated into the Carpathians.[139] Accelerating the collapse was the coup in Bucharest on 23 August 1944 as King Michael dismissed Marshal Ion Antonescu as Prime Minister and declared war on Germany.[140] Within a matter of days, most of Romania were occupied by the Soviet Union including most importantly, the Ploesti oil fields, which were Germany's most important source of oil.[141] Germany had occupied Greece in 1941 out of the fear that British bombers based in Greece would bomb the Romanian oil fields and deprived the Reich of the oil that powered its war machine.[142] On 23 August 1944, at a meeting at his headquarters, Adolf Hitler told Field Marshal Maximilian von Weichs, the commander of the German forces in the Balkans, that with the Romanian oil fields lost, there was now no more point in occupying Greece and he should begin preparations for a withdrawal from Greece at once.[143]

The German troops evacuated Athens on 12 October 1944, and by the end of the month, they had withdrawn from mainland Greece. The first British troops under General Scobie arrived in Athens on 14 October 1944."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece

The order to prepare for withdrawal was given 23rd of August, they spent the whole of September preparing and left Athens on the 12th of October. The parts of Greece south of Athens, including LOTS of islands had presumably been left earlier.
I doubt that the well organised German military would leave anything serviceable behind if they had any possibility of taking it with them. They knew that they were going to need it themselves.
/ Robin
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 11:32 AM UTC
Seems that some topics can really hit nerves. Such as whether Mussolini was really a comparative good guy compared to other leaders of his era. I happened to read about WW2 partisans and noted the biggest apparent hotspot for them was in Yugoslavia, though other nations had them as well.

I remember a political cartoon when Tito died and it showed an arch representing Yugoslavia, with a stone with Tito's name on it representing a missing part of the arch. Soon afterward a letter came to the Chicago Tribune saying that Tito was not benevolent at all.
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 11:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


So the Communists presumably had little indigenous support.



This is not the best place to discuss such matters.

Communist guerilla groups used volunteers that joined either by their will or by "persuasion". People helped them because they thought that their enemy was the Germans, not groups with different political views, as it proved after the Germans left.

There are many unpleasant aspects in this story, from all sides involved and it is not a pleasant subject for me personnaly.


Try bringing up the US Civil War in modern day America.
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