OK, thought I might try my hand at starting a new topic.
What I would like to hear about is if people feel that figures are vital and add to their armor models or detract from the vehicle and make it seem more "toy like."
I ask this because it seems that aircraft builders use figures less then their AFV building friends.
Do figures add to or distract from the historical accuracy of a model? (Models I've seen in musems don't tend to have figures.)
Does a great figure help a not-so-great vehicle or vise versa?
I ask because I tend to build my vehicles without their human componets. (Maybe because I don't think I'm as good at figure painting as I am at doing the vehicle!)
But, I do love to see an expertly painted tank commander poking out of that hatch on the turret.
Love to get some opinions!
Steve
Armor/AFV
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To Figure or not to Figure
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 11:18 PM UTC
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 11:23 PM UTC
I have'nt painted a figure for a model in quite some time...that's soon to change.
As far as distracting from the model or subject matter, nah, I think it's great to see them present. IMHO it adds "life" to the subject.
If nothing else, it places a scale representation next to the model. Sort of a ruler.
As far as distracting from the model or subject matter, nah, I think it's great to see them present. IMHO it adds "life" to the subject.
If nothing else, it places a scale representation next to the model. Sort of a ruler.
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 11:25 PM UTC
Steve - I'm from the side that thinks the figures ruin the effect of an AFV model in general. They create a "toy-like" quality for me, and I can count on one hand the number of figures I've seen finished that really set off the AFV or softskin they were displayed on.
However, to each his own, a lot of modelers feel that the figure helps create "a sense of scale" when added to model AFV's. I don't feel I need a figure to convey the same effect...
Gunnie
However, to each his own, a lot of modelers feel that the figure helps create "a sense of scale" when added to model AFV's. I don't feel I need a figure to convey the same effect...
Gunnie
slodder
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 11,718 posts
Armorama: 7,138 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 07, 2002 - 11:28 PM UTC
Go Figure - I vote for a definite bonus when a figure is added.
I look at this a 'general ' rule with exceptions.
Even just a TC helps out so much.
Being one of those cross-overs that builds both air and land I can speak to why I leave figures out of air subjects. The subject matter doesn't allow for figures as much because of scale and the availability of good figures.
Plus if you hang or elevate your aircraft in anyway you eliminate the entire ground crew.
I look at this a 'general ' rule with exceptions.
Even just a TC helps out so much.
Being one of those cross-overs that builds both air and land I can speak to why I leave figures out of air subjects. The subject matter doesn't allow for figures as much because of scale and the availability of good figures.
Plus if you hang or elevate your aircraft in anyway you eliminate the entire ground crew.
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 12:22 AM UTC
How about judges at contests. Do you think they want to see figures or may ovelook things on the vehicle if there are some really good figures along with it?
Steve
Steve
penpen
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,757 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 12:29 AM UTC
When the figure is good, it can add a lot ! And that's also why I enjoy a good diorama, but
that's one step further than the question here...
The figure allows you to "feel" the scene better, to imagine yourself next to the real thing.
For aircraft, it is very difficult to come by good figures ! And also the cockpit is a rather
cramped spot, so it's difficult to stick a figure inside of it.
that's one step further than the question here...
The figure allows you to "feel" the scene better, to imagine yourself next to the real thing.
For aircraft, it is very difficult to come by good figures ! And also the cockpit is a rather
cramped spot, so it's difficult to stick a figure inside of it.
Folgore
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 12:29 AM UTC
I build dioramas, so naturally I like to put figures with the tank. A good figure can make it look better, but I also believe a poor one can ruin it. I actually enjoy painting figures so I put a few with all my models.
As for competitions, I've never been in one so I can't help you there.
Nic
As for competitions, I've never been in one so I can't help you there.
Nic
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 12:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
How about judges at contests. Do you think they want to see figures or may ovelook things on the vehicle if there are some really good figures along with it?
Steve
As a contest judge - I do not look for a figure on an AFV or softskin. A modeler is not "required" to model them. A judge only evaluates what is presented them. I can humbly say that I've judged in almost 100 contests over the last 17 years and can only recall two in which the quality of the figure squarely made the difference between a First and Second Place.
This can be good or bad quality - as a poorly done figure will detract from the AFV or softskin subject overall, much like hastily done stowage and external gear. The figure doesn't distract a judge - it tends to draw the judge in closer. A well done figure never hurts the model it is placed on, so just like a nicely done tarp or liberated war booty, if you add it - do it the best you can...
Gunnie
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 12:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As a contest judge - I do not look for a figure on an AFV or softskin. A modeler is not "required" to model them. A judge only evaluates what is presented them.
Gunnie
Do you think there might be a bias though? Sometimes, it almost seems that it is expected to have a couple figures with an AFV. Especially when the model is placed on some sort of scenic base.
I've also heard that US modelers tend to build closed AFV's with no interiors and the UK modelers build more open models with full interiors.
Steve
herberta
Joined: March 06, 2002
KitMaker: 939 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 01:22 AM UTC
Good topic!
I think figures can add a lot to armor.
Big or little tanks are really brought to life by well painted figures. Of course popeyed crewmen are a problem, but that changes with practice.
Personally, a well made AFV on a plain wooden base is clearly a toy/artifact. The same vehicle on some adequate groundwork is much more pleasing. Adding figures gives one an impression of the scale of a vehicle, like how big a Tiger is, or how tall the Sherman is. I believe figures breath life into models.
Anyway, interesting topic...
Andy
I think figures can add a lot to armor.
Big or little tanks are really brought to life by well painted figures. Of course popeyed crewmen are a problem, but that changes with practice.
Personally, a well made AFV on a plain wooden base is clearly a toy/artifact. The same vehicle on some adequate groundwork is much more pleasing. Adding figures gives one an impression of the scale of a vehicle, like how big a Tiger is, or how tall the Sherman is. I believe figures breath life into models.
Anyway, interesting topic...
Andy
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 01:24 AM UTC
Yes Steve, in my experience there is a subtle bias in favor of modelers who include figures with their AFV or softskin models. It is difficult to nail down a demographic though, long-time modelers and novices, the bias runs across the judging pool equally. The scenic base does appear to prompt an "expectation" for figures to be added to the centerpiece model too. Of course, the more elaborate the scenic base - the closer it approaches being a diorama - hence the greater "expectation" for an observer to see figures included.
I think your observation between US and UK modelers is valid too. I'm an "open top - let it all hang out" kind of modeling fool - but closed top presentations seem to be the norm for most armor modelers. You can't really use the US IPMS Nationals as a gauge because the majority of armor modelers who regularly attend take more than one model, and will build in both categories so as not to compete against themselves. I seem to recall, however, that in 1995 there were some 30 closed top AFV models entered into the competition. It was insane to see a sea of tank models like that. US East Coast and Midwest shows tend to have larger attendance, and though I live on the West Coast, I believe that the closed top is largely the norm overall too.
The same observation seems to go for Aircraft modeling too - where the UK modelers appear to go for the "radically stripped down" insanity that most US A/C modelers don't opt for. Is it an appreciation/fascination with the "guts" of the machine that makes it appealing to UK modelers? I don't know - but I love looking at them! Conversely, are US modelers more into the aesthetics of the subject over the "innards"? A fun discussion.
Gunnie
I think your observation between US and UK modelers is valid too. I'm an "open top - let it all hang out" kind of modeling fool - but closed top presentations seem to be the norm for most armor modelers. You can't really use the US IPMS Nationals as a gauge because the majority of armor modelers who regularly attend take more than one model, and will build in both categories so as not to compete against themselves. I seem to recall, however, that in 1995 there were some 30 closed top AFV models entered into the competition. It was insane to see a sea of tank models like that. US East Coast and Midwest shows tend to have larger attendance, and though I live on the West Coast, I believe that the closed top is largely the norm overall too.
The same observation seems to go for Aircraft modeling too - where the UK modelers appear to go for the "radically stripped down" insanity that most US A/C modelers don't opt for. Is it an appreciation/fascination with the "guts" of the machine that makes it appealing to UK modelers? I don't know - but I love looking at them! Conversely, are US modelers more into the aesthetics of the subject over the "innards"? A fun discussion.
Gunnie
kkeefe
Joined: May 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 01:27 AM UTC
Hi,
Normally a RO kind of guy here, but I figured
that I'd jump in on this topic. Pardon the interuption... I hope that I can figure out all the bells and whistles here too... Please do allow me at least one screw-up.
I like to add, and I usually do add figures to my AFV models simply because it helps out with the overall scale effect of the subject being portrayed. Some people have a difficult time of relating to the scale and by adding a figure gives them some sort of sense to it all. Granted, that if the figure is poorly executed, then it'll detract form things, but a fairly decent job of it will help out overall. Judging of the figure(s) should not be taken into account unless the subject in the proper dio. catagory.
Your mileage may vary.
Thanks everyone!
Kevin Keefe
http://mortarsinminiature.com
Normally a RO kind of guy here, but I figured
that I'd jump in on this topic. Pardon the interuption... I hope that I can figure out all the bells and whistles here too... Please do allow me at least one screw-up.I like to add, and I usually do add figures to my AFV models simply because it helps out with the overall scale effect of the subject being portrayed. Some people have a difficult time of relating to the scale and by adding a figure gives them some sort of sense to it all. Granted, that if the figure is poorly executed, then it'll detract form things, but a fairly decent job of it will help out overall. Judging of the figure(s) should not be taken into account unless the subject in the proper dio. catagory.
Your mileage may vary.
Thanks everyone!
Kevin Keefe
http://mortarsinminiature.com
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 01:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I like to add, and I usually do add figures to my AFV models simply because it helps out with the overall scale effect of the subject being portrayed. Some people have a difficult time of relating to the scale and by adding a figure gives them some sort of sense to it all. Granted, that if the figure is poorly executed, then it'll detract form things, but a fairly decent job of it will help out overall. Judging of the figure(s) should not be taken into account unless the subject in the proper dio. catagory.
Hi Kevin - jump in anytime!
I agree with what you said above. Personally, when faced with judging a category that has a mixed-bag (some AFV's with figures and some without) I try not to place the figure into the center of what I'm looking at - i.e. use the figure to tie-break an eventual placement. I believe the figure belongs in the diorama category too - and that's where I place emphasis on evaluating it.
I try not to let a great figure pull a mediocre AFV or softskin across the finish line when it is an AFV or softskin category - and vice versa for a fantastic AFV model with a less-than-spectacular figure. If a figure is placed to enhance the scale effect of the centerpiece, then I certainly wouldn't want to get hung up on it and miss the modeler's focus.
My feeling is also because the techniques and finishes for what is generally considered "great" armor modeling are so different. I've seen figures finished in the same manner as their "mounts" - and I've even seen AFV's finished just like their attending figures. That is a radically different "look" - but that's what makes the hobby interesting. The mixing of the styles, however, is what probably spoils the effect for me.
Gunnie
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 02:10 AM UTC
I build as the whim strikes me. My M36 has three figures in the thing; my M4A4 (pictures sent in soon!) has none. In fact the latter has no stowage other than pioneer tools, either. I wanted to showcase the very different hull contours of that variant. My next project, a TTW Sherman Jumbo conversion, will have crew figures with it. And at least one of my Fireflies will too. It all depends on what I decide I want to emphasise with the project, and that decision isn't determined by what a judge might think at some time in the future.
Greg
Greg
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 02:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I build as the whim strikes me. My M36 has three figures in the thing; my M4A4 (pictures sent in soon!) has none. In fact the latter has no stowage other than pioneer tools, either. I wanted to showcase the very different hull contours of that variant. My next project, a TTW Sherman Jumbo conversion, will have crew figures with it. And at least one of my Fireflies will too. It all depends on what I decide I want to emphasise with the project, and that decision isn't determined by what a judge might think at some time in the future.
Greg
I agree with Greg - never build what you think a judge will go for - you'll be disappointed more often than not! Superdetailing isn't a hook to winning a contest, nor is building a "safe" out-of-the-box model. You just build it to satisify yourself, and if it does, it will please an observer too.
Gunnie
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 02:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
never build what you think a judge will go for - you'll be disappointed more often than not! Superdetailing isn't a hook to winning a contest, nor is building a "safe" out-of-the-box model. You just build it to satisify yourself, and if it does, it will please an observer too.
Gunnie
Great quote, but sometimes (and not just in model making) it seems that judges are looking for some expectaion they have.
I build to have fun, not compete. I do, however, like to enter a local contest because I think it helps promote the hobby, adds to the local show (more models equals more for visitors to look at) and it's a good way to see how your work compares and differ's to other builders.
And, I must modestly say, I've done OK in the competition!
As far as figures, I know people go to great lengths to make sure their vehicle is historicaly accurate. I wonder if the same reserach goes into the figures. I just build those out of the box and if it looks right go with it. But for my AFV, I like to triple check references.
I wonder if judges are as critical with the figure on the tank as with the tank itself. I know the show I compete in dosen't give gold, silver or bronze. They give 1st place and 2nd place so it's not a question of meeting standards but more of a subjective judgement.
Steve
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
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Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 02:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
never build what you think a judge will go for - you'll be disappointed more often than not! Superdetailing isn't a hook to winning a contest, nor is building a "safe" out-of-the-box model. You just build it to satisify yourself, and if it does, it will please an observer too.
Gunnie
Great quote, but sometimes (and not just in model making) it seems that judges are looking for some expectaion they have.
Yep - and I had some good teachers when I learned how to judge models. That was the first thing they told me NOT to do. A sure sign of a weak judge is the individual who approaches the model says "if it were mine - I'd have done..." It's never about you personally - it's about the model in front of you and what the builder did to it.
Quoted Text
As far as figures, I know people go to great lengths to make sure their vehicle is historicaly accurate. I wonder if the same reserach goes into the figures. I just build those out of the box and if it looks right go with it. But for my AFV, I like to triple check references.
I wonder about that too. I think MMiR's "Mini-Men" section at the back of every magazine really sheds some light on what figures are actually sculpted as wearing and to which time period it belongs. That's a great aid to a modeler, and makes the issue non-confrontational. If you didn't before, but are interested, then here's a section for you to get better kind of thinking.
Quoted Text
I wonder if judges are as critical with the figure on the tank as with the tank itself. I know the show I compete in dosen't give gold, silver or bronze. They give 1st place and 2nd place so it's not a question of meeting standards but more of a subjective judgement.
Not consistently. The biggest (easiest) detractors are seams at the joints and the "pop-eyed" look. A "deer-in-the-headlight" look on a StuG Commander really looks bad. I have not heard deep, in-depth, discussions about the figure's garb because the evaluation doesn't have to go that deep.
Subjective Judgments are really tough - on both the judge and the modelers participating. Hey - who wants to opt another guy's model out of the running? That's certainly no fun. Established criteria - if you have to have a contest - is a better way to go - providing that the established criteria is applied consistently across the board, every time. It makes no sense to set criteria and then throw it to subjective intrepretation. Experimentation should never be done in a open event with modelers who are seeking established criteria to evaluate their work against.
Gunnie
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 04:57 AM UTC
Wow Gunnie, this has got to be the most posts by you since the last GunTruck thread! Thanks go out to sniper for starting the thead. Gunnie's been controlling his outbursts as of late, good to hear your voice Gunnie!
As to my opinion about the inclusion of figures......would love to include figures with my AFV's, except I have one glaring problem.....I can't paint a figure worth a tinker's damn! Although, in my defense, I can say that I don't do the 'pop-eyed' thing.
Tread.
Maybe I'm just being too anal about my figures too.............nah! #:-)
As to my opinion about the inclusion of figures......would love to include figures with my AFV's, except I have one glaring problem.....I can't paint a figure worth a tinker's damn! Although, in my defense, I can say that I don't do the 'pop-eyed' thing.
Tread.
Maybe I'm just being too anal about my figures too.............nah! #:-)
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 04:59 AM UTC
Ooooooooooh,...........that last post was #1111.........I wonder if there's anything spooky about that?.........................................nah!
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SS-74
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
Armorama: 2,388 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 11:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Wow Gunnie, this has got to be the most posts by you since the last GunTruck thread! Thanks go out to sniper for starting the thead. Gunnie's been controlling his outbursts as of late, good to hear your voice Gunnie!
As to my opinion about the inclusion of figures......would love to include figures with my AFV's, except I have one glaring problem.....I can't paint a figure worth a tinker's damn! Although, in my defense, I can say that I don't do the 'pop-eyed' thing.
Tread.
Maybe I'm just being too anal about my figures too.............nah! #:-)
I still remember the first 3 AFV models that I had built, yep, they all have figures in it. Then I realized that although my AFV building skill is slowly improving, nevertheless, my figure painting skill is not taking any forward momentum. So I side with tread here, I don't put figures in my AFV model anymore, because I simply SUCK on this. #:-) And also in my defense, yes, I did made them POPEYED.
I wish one day, I could do a decent figure....
Folgore
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 12:13 PM UTC
If you are having trouble with the eyes, don't bother painting them. On 1/35 scale, with the men squinting in the sun, you can certainly get away with it. Painting figures can be fun. Maybe you should join in the group build Anders has got going.
Nic
Nic
SS-74
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
Armorama: 2,388 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 12:25 PM UTC
Yep, I would like to do some group building thing, but the only set back is I am in HK, so should be hard if I ever try to send a built AFV over across the big blue pond.... #:-) #:-) #:-)
drewgimpy
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 835 posts
Armorama: 388 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 03:00 PM UTC
I don't put them in with my models. I freely admit the main reason is I can't do it that well. Even if I could I don't know if I would in most cases. My focus is on the machine. I am not trying to recreate a scene or event, I am trying to build an acurate piece of military equipment. I also try to add some items that would normaly have been on the subject. It is the same reason I don't put a lot of dirt or mud on it. If I where to build a dio it would be completely different. I could see an M113 covered in mud in a diorama that had matching scenery, but not on my shelf by itself. I have a lot of respect for people who can build figures, a WHOLE lot of respect, but just don't have a desire to do it myself right now.
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2002 - 10:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Wow Gunnie, this has got to be the most posts by you since the last GunTruck thread! Thanks go out to sniper for starting the thead. Gunnie's been controlling his outbursts as of late, good to hear your voice Gunnie!
Thanks Tread - and I'll be returning to my moderate-mode again
Gunnie
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 12:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My focus is on the machine. ...it is the same reason I don't put a lot of dirt or mud on it. If I where to build a dio it would be completely different. I could see an M113 covered in mud in a diorama that had matching scenery, but not on my shelf by itself.
Now, I do tend to mud up my vehicles because I like to put them on a scenic base. It really ties the whole thing together in my opinion. And, most photos I use as reference seem to have dirty vehicles.
Also, I think I do dirt and mud pretty well! That's a very fun step for me!
I don't know if any of you guys have ever built for a museum (I have not) but I wonder if they would rather have a clean, almost factory fresh vehicle.
Steve
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