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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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That old question ...
pbennett
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 11:12 AM UTC
This has probably been discussed many times … green-painted Tiger tanks in Tunisia, fact or fiction? At one time, this was a common understanding, but has been since been regarded by many as a myth.
Any thoughts?
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 01:02 PM UTC
RAL 7008 over RAL 8000 so it would appear a greenish colour.Also probably painted over Dunkelgrau.
Tojo72
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 01:37 PM UTC
You definitely right,many threads on this over the years.I defer to David Byrden who seems to have debunked the myth with his research and the latest Dragon Tunisian Tiger.
Jmarles
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 01:44 PM UTC
I would just search Mr. Byrden's comments here and on tigerIinfo .

You might be thinking of two different paint theories, one of which is fantasy. The fantasy, popular before much research was done, is that some Tigers were painted in captured allied olive green. This theory does not have any basis in fact.

I suspect though, you may be referring to the first tropical scheme of RAL 8000 painted with mottling of RAL 7008. Is it this greyish green you are thinking about?

I think I read somewhere the British called the Tigers "Olive Green", probably a familiar point of reference for them. Maybe that is where the OD myth came from.
Northwoods
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 02:04 PM UTC
The Bovington Tiger

https://blog.tiger-tank.com/tiger-131/tiger-131-restoration-part-v-a-setback-and-a-repaint/

RAL8000 with RAL7008 camo.

https://www.landmarkscout.com/the-tiger-collection-tank-museum-bovington-united-kingdom/

Colors found during restoration with pattern based on black & white photos.
Byrden
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Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 09:17 PM UTC
We have so many photos from Tunisia that we can follow some of the Tigers from Italy to their final destruction.

It's clear that, though they got dusty, they didn't get repainted.

David
Jmarles
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Posted: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 - 01:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

We have so many photos from Tunisia that we can follow some of the Tigers from Italy to their final destruction.

It's clear that, though they got dusty, they didn't get repainted.

David




Totally off topic, but do you have any thoughts on the Tiger I resto project at the Australian Museum of Armour and Artillery?
pbennett
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Posted: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 - 05:06 AM UTC
Thanks for your responses.
Yes, it was the 'olive green' myth I was referring to.

Paul
SSGToms
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2020 - 02:21 AM UTC
Here's a Tiger I in original paint at Aberdeen - what color does it look to you?
bill_c
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2020 - 02:28 AM UTC
Matt, as a former professional photographer, let me state a couple of facts:

1. Color rendition is dependent on the quality of the camera glass. I paid primo dinaro back in the day for special lenses with sophisticated rare earth elements, like flourite etc. that would render color more realistically. Your consumer camera isn't a reliable witness;

2. Film "emulsions" color shift over time (ever notice an add or photo in a store window and how it shifts to blue as the sun washes out the inks?). This looks like an "antique" image to me, but I have been wrong before and will be wrong again.

3. Digitizing a photo may change the color balance.

As with others, I will defer to David's expert opinion on this. We don't even know if that tank is actually in its real birthday suit and wasn't restored or repainted. Without a "chain of custody," we could be looking at something post-war.
Tojo72
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2020 - 02:36 AM UTC
That picture looks two tone green and tan,like Tropen
Ringleheim
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 04:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here's a Tiger I in original paint at Aberdeen - what color does it look to you?



This is a really interesting photo. Do we know what year this photo was taken? Was it close to the end of the War?

I have been to Aberdeen several times (when the tanks were actually still there) and I'm aware of the horrible storage conditions there. We basically threw everything in a field and let it rot.

What amazes me about the photo is how FADED the colors are. It looks like it's been sitting out under the sun for 25 years. And maybe it had! Which is why I asked when this photo was taken.

If this photo was from, say, the 1940s, I think the degree of fading would be really interesting.

Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 04:30 AM UTC
The color looks lifeless. If you look at the grass it's just wrong. Can't tell what time of year it is hot summer but probably not due to the sweater. But even when grass is dried out due to seasons it still has some green to it and the browns aren't so dead and dark looking but are quite a bit lighter, and brighter.

What this would do to the color on the tank, couldn't tell you. I could make it greener or grey.
Ringleheim
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 04:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The color looks lifeless. If you look at the grass it's just wrong. Can't tell what time of year it is hot summer but probably not due to the sweater. But even when grass is dried out due to seasons it still has some green to it and the browns aren't so dead and dark looking but are quite a bit lighter, and brighter.

What this would do to the color on the tank, couldn't tell you. I could make it greener or grey.



No doubt the color balance of the photo is a bit off and the colors appear cold, or what you call "lifeless."

But you can still tell just how faded out the paintwork on the Tiger is.

I was just looking at the photo again and the guy's clothing/haircut and I'm wondering. Maybe from the 1960s?

If so, that's still a long time for the tank to be sitting out under the sun, and therefore, I wouldn't put much stock into the degree of fading.

As noted, and having been there a few times, it is quite obvious the US government didn't spend 5 minutes thinking about "historical preservation" in its operations at the Aberdeen proving grounds. I guess that makes sense. Initially there was still a war on and they had a job to do--learn about enemy equipment and conduct tests.

No one was thinking of an initial Afrika Tiger I as a priceless historical object at that time.

What a shame! Too bad!

Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 05:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The color looks lifeless. If you look at the grass it's just wrong. Can't tell what time of year it is hot summer but probably not due to the sweater. But even when grass is dried out due to seasons it still has some green to it and the browns aren't so dead and dark looking but are quite a bit lighter, and brighter.

What this would do to the color on the tank, couldn't tell you. I could make it greener or grey.



No doubt the color balance of the photo is a bit off and the colors appear cold, or what you call "lifeless."

But you can still tell just how faded out the paintwork on the Tiger is.

I was just looking at the photo again and the guy's clothing/haircut and I'm wondering. Maybe from the 1960s?

If so, that's still a long time for the tank to be sitting out under the sun, and therefore, I wouldn't put much stock into the degree of fading.

As noted, and having been there a few times, it is quite obvious the US government didn't spend 5 minutes thinking about "historical preservation" in its operations at the Aberdeen proving grounds. I guess that makes sense. Initially there was still a war on and they had a job to do--learn about enemy equipment and conduct tests.

No one was thinking of an initial Afrika Tiger I as a priceless historical object at that time.

What a shame! Too bad!




I played with the photo in Photoshop for a few minutes, which was the limit of my expertise using Photoshop, and messed with the greens a bit. When I got the grass looking 'grass green' as I could and brightened the tone just a bit, it really changed the image. The green on the sweater really popped looking like something that a person would really wear, the rust streaks on the side looked like rust, the barrel of the gun in front of the mantlet looked like red lead primer and a bit of rust. And the tank looked like a faded, sunbleached grey. But again photo manipulation of a digitized 60 year old color photo doesn't mean a thing.
chnoone
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 07:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Matt, as a former professional photographer, let me state a couple of facts:

1. Color rendition is dependent on the quality of the camera glass. I paid primo dinaro back in the day for special lenses with sophisticated rare earth elements, like flourite etc. that would render color more realistically. Your consumer camera isn't a reliable witness;

2. Film "emulsions" color shift over time (ever notice an add or photo in a store window and how it shifts to blue as the sun washes out the inks?). This looks like an "antique" image to me, but I have been wrong before and will be wrong again.

3. Digitizing a photo may change the color balance.

As with others, I will defer to David's expert opinion on this. We don't even know if that tank is actually in its real birthday suit and wasn't restored or repainted. Without a "chain of custody," we could be looking at something post-war.



.... I would agree with Bill here.
The only thing we do know it that this Tiger left the factory in "Grey", the only proof is that the receiving depot and/or units were to apply a camo scheme as ordered by the unit commander in accordance to standing orders at that time.
All these possible RAL scenarios are just an "academic" exercise because we don't know what supplies were available to the troops ... despite standing orders.
Interestingly the latest DRAGON Tiger kit "Battle of Kharkov" we see a Tiger in so-called Tropen camo with a grey gun barrel and turret bin on the Russian Front .... hilarious
The greatest misconception in modeling is that ... (trying to read "colours" into old BW photos isn't really scientific at all).... the belief that tank crews really care that much about the camo scheme of their tank once deployed.
As a former Tanker I can tell you that the appearance of your tank was the very least thing one would reflect on ... a tank has a purpose ... then and now, and it's not to satisfy the world wide modeling community debating the original colors for sure.

A Tiger painted in some "greenish" camo tone ... fact or fiction ... who knows ?

Cheers
Christopher
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