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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Zimmerit pattern on HJ Panthers in Normandy?
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 - 02:14 PM UTC
Hey everyone! I hope everyone and your respective loved ones are doing well this April. Greetings and love from Missouri, USA

Question;

I am working on a large diorama project depicting the battle of Norrey-en-Bessin. This involves Panther Ausf A’s of the 3rd Kompanie, 1st battalion, SS Panzer Regiment 12. I’m using Takom’s wonderful Panther A Late but can’t decide on the appropriate zimmerit pattern. 3rd Kompanie had mostly mid-late and late Ausf A’s while 1st, and 4th had a lot of early G’s. I’m unsure about 2nd’s mounts.

If anyone has any suggestions, reference photos or any input on which zimm pattern 3rd Kompanie’s Panther’s had, I’d be very appreciative.

I have been lucky in that I was able to snag 2 sheets of Cavalier zimmerit, (just hours after posted), on ebay and was able to grab a set of Waldemar's amazing ATAK just before he suspended sales due to Poland’s efforts to control COVID-19. It's important to note that the ATAK set is actually meant for Dragon's Panther A but I could make it work if I had to. I can recognize M.A.N.’s grid with vertical lines and Diamler-Benz’s large grid pattern by sight but those are the only 2 I can positively I.D. On the fly.

I have these 3 options and would love to hear from you all on which would be the best bet.

Thanks again!

Options (top to bottom): ATAK- Grid Vertical (M.A.N. I believe). Cavalier- Grid Horizontal (Daimler Benz I think) Cavalier- Horizontal (not sure, possibly M.N.H.)

PanzerKarl
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England - North West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 - 10:36 PM UTC
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
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Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 - 10:38 PM UTC
I'd say the Atak sheet looks the most rigid, and so the least convincing.
Look for the MAN pattern.

Btw, it's not too hard to make yourself.

Echelon details make good decal sheets for this unit.
Their decals soften well over zimmerit with Tamiya Mark Fit decal softner.
https://echelonfd.com/
d111298pw
#456
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 01:18 AM UTC
Ideally, you need to know which factory produced the versions that the HJ used. The Ausf. A's were produced by MAN, DB, MNH, and a handful at Demag. Each factory applied zimmerit differently, and with a different pattern. That is why the Panther experts (I'm not one) can look at a pic of the zimmerit and tell you which factory it came from.

If you don't know the factory, and you don't have a clear picture to use, the default is to go with MAN since they were the primary contractor.

The first Ausf G's were produced by MAN. Then, at two month intervals, DB, then MNH. So, if HJ had early G's, then most likely they would be from MAN, possible a few from DB.
Nate_W
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 05:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'd say the Atak sheet looks the most rigid, and so the least convincing.
Look for the MAN pattern.

Btw, it's not too hard to make yourself.

Echelon details make good decal sheets for this unit.
Their decals soften well over zimmerit with Tamiya Mark Fit decal softner.
https://echelonfd.com/



Thanks Marc! I do a lot of work with putty and sculpting so I may end up doin gun my own if I were to find a photo of 3rd Kompanies Ausf A’s that show a pattern of zimm I can’t get. I appreciate the help!
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 05:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ideally, you need to know which factory produced the versions that the HJ used. The Ausf. A's were produced by MAN, DB, MNH, and a handful at Demag. Each factory applied zimmerit differently, and with a different pattern. That is why the Panther experts (I'm not one) can look at a pic of the zimmerit and tell you which factory it came from.

If you don't know the factory, and you don't have a clear picture to use, the default is to go with MAN since they were the primary contractor.

The first Ausf G's were produced by MAN. Then, at two month intervals, DB, then
MNH. So, if HJ had early G's, then most likely they would be from MAN, possible a few from DB.


This is great info, you definitely know more about the production details than I. If you have a reference book to recommend please do. I had learned from Waldemar of ATAK about the manufacturer specific panther zimm patterns, that was news to me but it makes sense that each had their own. I’ve been able to recognize Daimler, MAN and MNH by sight. I’ve been able to identify some MAN patterns on Ausf G’s of 1st and 4th Kompanie, but the only photos I have of 3rd Kompanies Ausf A’s, the zimm is just barely unidentifiable. It’s likely that there are photos I’ve yet to come across though, so I’m remaining optimistic.

I love Echelon’s beautiful decals and made sure to get their HJ Panther pt.1 and 2. Their decals are the best I’ve used on zimmerit. I just wish their instruction sheets which contain directions and amazing camouflage pattern examples were printed better. Their camo and decal positioning samples are based on photos and research and I find the camo schemes far more realistic than Star’s. Because of the cost efficient printing, however, I some water on it and nearly the entire thing instruction sheet is ruined by the ink running.

Thanks Mark!
d111298pw
#456
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 07:02 PM UTC
Here are the references that I use for the Panther family

Reference Material:

Panther
Panzer Tracts No. 5-1: Panzerkampfwagen “Panther” Ausfuehrung D
Panzer Tracts No. 5-2: Panzerkampfwagen “Panther” Ausfuehrung A
Panzer Tracts No. 5-3: Panzerkampfwagen “Panther” Ausfuehrung G
Germany’s Panther Tank: The Quest for Combat Supremacy
Panther: External Appearance and Design Changes
Feist Books: Panzerkampfwagen Panther

Jagdpanther
Panzer Tracts No. 9-3: Jagdpanther Panzerjaeger Panther (8.8 cm) (Sd.Kfz.173)
Germany's Heavy Jagdpanzer: Development - Production - Operations

Bergepanther
Panzer Tracts No. 16: Bergepanzerwagen - Bergepanzer 38 to Bergepanther
Panzer Tracts No. 16-1: Bergepanther Ausf.D, A, G

Panther: External Appearance and Design Changes has the best discussion on the various zimmerit patterns with many pics of each style.
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 10:10 PM UTC
You're right, the new Echelon instructions are vulnerable.
Here's how I did the MAN zimm.




I used Mori Mori putty and the AFV Club zimmerit roller.
guni-kid
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: July 21, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 - 10:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You're right, the new Echelon instructions are vulnerable.
Here's how I did the MAN zimm.

[...]

I used Mori Mori putty and the AFV Club zimmerit roller.


Wow, that looks nice and well worth the effort. Even though nothing Zimmerit-wearing is even close to my bench at the moment, I'll have to try this technique one day just for the nice looks of it.
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 06:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here are the references that I use for the Panther family

Reference Material:

Panther
Panzer Tracts No. 5-1: Panzerkampfwagen “Panther” Ausfuehrung D
Panzer Tracts No. 5-2: Panzerkampfwagen “Panther” Ausfuehrung A
Panzer Tracts No. 5-3: Panzerkampfwagen “Panther” Ausfuehrung G
Germany’s Panther Tank: The Quest for Combat Supremacy
Panther: External Appearance and Design Changes
Feist Books: Panzerkampfwagen Panther

Jagdpanther
Panzer Tracts No. 9-3: Jagdpanther Panzerjaeger Panther (8.8 cm) (Sd.Kfz.173)
Germany's Heavy Jagdpanzer: Development - Production - Operations

Bergepanther
Panzer Tracts No. 16: Bergepanzerwagen - Bergepanzer 38 to Bergepanther
Panzer Tracts No. 16-1: Bergepanther Ausf.D, A, G

Panther: External Appearance and Design Changes has the best discussion on the various zimmerit patterns with many pics of each style.


Thank you so much Mark. I'm going to have to pick up the 'Panther Tracks 5-2 on the Ausf.A' and 'Germany’s Panther Tank: The Quest for Combat Supremacy'. I actually bought 'Panther A Visual Modeler's Guide Vol.2 External' It's put out by MIG Ammo and while it has a good number of large high res photos of the exterior, it's mostly just a quick reference guide for exterior parts, but it does that very well. It's has a page on all the zimm patterns, the page was actually posted above in the comments here, but the page doesn't include or go into detail about who produced which pattern. I 'll be sure to pick your recommendations up!
Nate_W
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Missouri, United States
Joined: April 13, 2012
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Posted: Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 07:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You're right, the new Echelon instructions are vulnerable.
Here's how I did the MAN zimm.

I used Mori Mori putty and the AFV Club zimmerit roller.


Marc, you did an outstanding job on that entire build. That is one incredible Panther A. How you go the putty so thin and to adhere to the plastic, yet thick enough to create the prominent lines is nothing short of masterful.

Thank you for your help!
marcb
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Posted: Thursday, April 23, 2020 - 10:24 PM UTC
Nate,

Thanks,

Glad you like it.

I used the other tool for spreading the putty. (A chisel X-acto blade on it's end.) Do small areas at a time. Clean up the AFV Club roler regularly with a sharp curved X-acto blade. Use talcum powder to keep the putty from sticking to the roller.

The rake, is just three dressmaker pins glued to a piece of plastic and further secured with two compound putty. Spacing is 3 mm.


Amazon sells Mori Mori putty.
Btw, this has no clear instruction. Just mix putty and hardener to a bright yellow color.
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