Yes, run a few in odd places I guess.
Dan
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M47 Turret Differences
panamadan
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,513 posts
Armorama: 1,449 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 - 03:23 PM UTC
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 01:25 AM UTC
Another example of foundry marking application...click on pic to enlarge.
The number '4205' is brass, from the spares box. Towards the rear of the turret, the numbers come from Plastruct. The foundry mark is Archer's raised 'decal'.
Other details: The metal springs used on the loaders hatch is from: Precision Scale Company, Inc., 2383 Meridian Rd., Victor, MT 59875. Can't recall the scale size I picked, but it was one of the smallest springs available. Available on eBay. Cut away the plastic version of the springs from the two plastic attach points of each spring. Keeping those 2 plastic attach points, evenly stretch the metal spring enough to match the original distance left from removing the plastic spring to duplicate the application distance on the hatch.
Also the structural surround of the loader's hatch I placed the brackets for a padlock. I installed a set on the commander's hatch, but later removed. At that time I could not produce enough photo evidence to make the installation commonplace (probably for use in a museum).
Every kit lift ring, along with the grab handles, are replaced, or installed, with wire...steel, inconel, brass, picture wire...whatever works for rigidity and scale.
The .50 cal gun mount cover is nothing more than a PE cap with chain from the spares box.
Mantlet cover and PE, we now know is from D.E.F. Models. Recommended!!
More turret foundry eye candy
And now you know why we have to deal with those cheeky weld marks
The number '4205' is brass, from the spares box. Towards the rear of the turret, the numbers come from Plastruct. The foundry mark is Archer's raised 'decal'.
Other details: The metal springs used on the loaders hatch is from: Precision Scale Company, Inc., 2383 Meridian Rd., Victor, MT 59875. Can't recall the scale size I picked, but it was one of the smallest springs available. Available on eBay. Cut away the plastic version of the springs from the two plastic attach points of each spring. Keeping those 2 plastic attach points, evenly stretch the metal spring enough to match the original distance left from removing the plastic spring to duplicate the application distance on the hatch.
Also the structural surround of the loader's hatch I placed the brackets for a padlock. I installed a set on the commander's hatch, but later removed. At that time I could not produce enough photo evidence to make the installation commonplace (probably for use in a museum).
Every kit lift ring, along with the grab handles, are replaced, or installed, with wire...steel, inconel, brass, picture wire...whatever works for rigidity and scale.
The .50 cal gun mount cover is nothing more than a PE cap with chain from the spares box.
Mantlet cover and PE, we now know is from D.E.F. Models. Recommended!!
More turret foundry eye candy
And now you know why we have to deal with those cheeky weld marks
afvaficionado
Joined: February 16, 2010
KitMaker: 160 posts
Armorama: 159 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 14, 2020 - 08:11 AM UTC
Interesting stuff. Have you found variations in the cupola of the M47 similar to the variations found in the M41?
Have a look at Reply no 8 - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=2213.0 - and - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=5967.0 -
Mal
Have a look at Reply no 8 - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=2213.0 - and - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=5967.0 -
Mal
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 01:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Interesting stuff. Have you found variations in the cupola of the M47 similar to the variations found in the M41?
Have a look at Reply no 8 - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=2213.0 - and - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=5967.0 -
Mal
Not to that extent. I've seen one (out of 15 I've examined in detail) that was different. It had much smaller blocks around the periphery and the front of the cupola was left as-cast.
I suspect that these features were intended to mount a fording tower.
KL
afvaficionado
Joined: February 16, 2010
KitMaker: 160 posts
Armorama: 159 posts
Posted: Friday, May 15, 2020 - 10:13 AM UTC
Hi kurt
Interesting. I had wondered if the buttress's were a welded addition, rather than cast as part of the cupola, and had just been left off? I've only seen these variations on late build M41's - only photo's & videos. All the NZ M41 are the very early T41E1, converted to M41A1 - with the X7404114 turret & PSF 7384712 upper hull - which are essentially ignored in the reference books.
Mal
Interesting. I had wondered if the buttress's were a welded addition, rather than cast as part of the cupola, and had just been left off? I've only seen these variations on late build M41's - only photo's & videos. All the NZ M41 are the very early T41E1, converted to M41A1 - with the X7404114 turret & PSF 7384712 upper hull - which are essentially ignored in the reference books.
Mal
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2020 - 11:46 PM UTC
In a previous post, I mentioned that there is an aftermarket main gun replacement with the mantlet showing foundry markings. The product is by MR Models, kit # MR-35577, 90mm Kanone, designed for Takom M47's. Comes with the bare mantlet cover showing foundry markings, turned aluminum barrel, and a resin muzzle brake (which will have you dig out the end of the barrel in order to produce a hole...use the kit's)) As with gizmology, and manipulation, this gun can be modified to fit the Testors kit (1/35 is 1/35 with a little tweeking).
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Monday, May 18, 2020 - 12:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi kurt
Interesting. I had wondered if the buttress's were a welded addition, rather than cast as part of the cupola, and had just been left off? I've only seen these variations on late build M41's - only photo's & videos. All the NZ M41 are the very early T41E1, converted to M41A1 - with the X7404114 turret & PSF 7384712 upper hull - which are essentially ignored in the reference books.
Mal
Now I need to pull out my AFV Club M41 and take a closer look,,,
zapper
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
Armorama: 734 posts
Posted: Monday, May 18, 2020 - 01:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Now I need to pull out my AFV Club M41 and take a closer look,,,
OT but since you mentioned the AFV Club M41. While the details are nice, the whole turret is underscaled.
... unless you have the M41G release that is based on the Skybow kit.
Cheers.
/E
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Monday, May 18, 2020 - 08:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHi kurt
Interesting. I had wondered if the buttress's were a welded addition, rather than cast as part of the cupola, and had just been left off? I've only seen these variations on late build M41's - only photo's & videos. All the NZ M41 are the very early T41E1, converted to M41A1 - with the X7404114 turret & PSF 7384712 upper hull - which are essentially ignored in the reference books.
Mal
Now I need to pull out my AFV Club M41 and take a closer look,,,
Looking at the instructions on Scalemates, both the Skybow and AFV kits have them as add-ons. I have both in the stash but can't get at them right now...
(And looking at the Tankograd book it looks like the German tanks had them, but only a handful of shots show the cupola in enough detail to see them.)
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, May 18, 2020 - 02:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextHi kurt
Interesting. I had wondered if the buttress's were a welded addition, rather than cast as part of the cupola, and had just been left off? I've only seen these variations on late build M41's - only photo's & videos. All the NZ M41 are the very early T41E1, converted to M41A1 - with the X7404114 turret & PSF 7384712 upper hull - which are essentially ignored in the reference books.
Mal
Now I need to pull out my AFV Club M41 and take a closer look,,,
Looking at the instructions on Scalemates, both the Skybow and AFV kits have them as add-ons. I have both in the stash but can't get at them right now...
(And looking at the Tankograd book it looks like the German tanks had them, but only a handful of shots show the cupola in enough detail to see them.)
Some data:
SN 378 with cupola cast on 10-4-51 has pedestals.
SN 5??,with cupola cast by ASF on 10-30-52 is "smooth".
SN 980, 1086, 1169, 2506 cupola cast 6-11-52, 2546 cupola cast 8-11-52, has pedestals.
SN 2982, 3225 is smooth.
SN 3611 with original style turret cast 4-5-51 has pedestals.
SN ??? with original style turret cast 8-?-51 has pedestals.
RN 30174228, 30182714, 30182715, 30183279, 30183416, is smooth.
RN 30183255, 30183222 has pedestals.
KL
afvaficionado
Joined: February 16, 2010
KitMaker: 160 posts
Armorama: 159 posts
Posted: Monday, May 18, 2020 - 06:25 PM UTC
Hi Kurt
Are those all M41 Cupola's?
Do you have photo's of them?
Can't say I've seen any by ASF, but a few by PSF (Pittsburgh Steel Foundries) Also one by DA or S in Octagon, cast 5-15-52 - that's one where the serial number is vertically oriented on the either side of the cupola below the sight guard, angle of the photo renders the SN illegible.
Others I have -
SER 165 PSF No date, with buttress's - NZ30543, Aust
SER 318 vertical, with Buttress's, angle precludes reading more
SER 404 - US Moundsville?
SER 408 vertical, with buttress's -Latrun, Israel
SER 470 vertical with buttress's.
SER 496, vertical with Buttress's - Danish
SER 837, Cast 10-31-51, with buttress's, Littlefield collection
SER 1015, Can't read the date - Asia
SER A58, vertical, smooth, Brevard County US - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=5967.0 -
I'm in the process of putting together a post on M41 Casting marks - a selection of examples, including those early hulls the ref books ignore.
Mal
Are those all M41 Cupola's?
Do you have photo's of them?
Can't say I've seen any by ASF, but a few by PSF (Pittsburgh Steel Foundries) Also one by DA or S in Octagon, cast 5-15-52 - that's one where the serial number is vertically oriented on the either side of the cupola below the sight guard, angle of the photo renders the SN illegible.
Others I have -
SER 165 PSF No date, with buttress's - NZ30543, Aust
SER 318 vertical, with Buttress's, angle precludes reading more
SER 404 - US Moundsville?
SER 408 vertical, with buttress's -Latrun, Israel
SER 470 vertical with buttress's.
SER 496, vertical with Buttress's - Danish
SER 837, Cast 10-31-51, with buttress's, Littlefield collection
SER 1015, Can't read the date - Asia
SER A58, vertical, smooth, Brevard County US - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=5967.0 -
I'm in the process of putting together a post on M41 Casting marks - a selection of examples, including those early hulls the ref books ignore.
Mal
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 06:06 AM UTC
The SN and RN I've listed are for the tank.
These numbers are all based on my photos.
KL
These numbers are all based on my photos.
KL
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 02:42 PM UTC
While we're on foundry markings for the M47 in general...note lower plate numbers and foundry marking. Try and ignore those tracks as well... 
Both M47's are on display in Pakistan.
Both M47's are on display in Pakistan.18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 03:10 PM UTC
You can't just show a photo like that and tell us to ignore the tracks. Those give that machine a whole different look. In fact, that whole photo shows some pretty cool differences - the lights and brush guards, the fenders, the blanked out MG port, and the turret profile we previously discussed.
The foundry marks are similar to those on my poor old Suez M-47 from 20 years ago. If Archer was making them back then I was not aware of them. I was still buying Esci M60's just to cut out the foundry marks. Maybe that's where they've all gone...
Notice the chamfer on the glacis joint.
It's more pronounced on some examples than others.
The foundry marks are similar to those on my poor old Suez M-47 from 20 years ago. If Archer was making them back then I was not aware of them. I was still buying Esci M60's just to cut out the foundry marks. Maybe that's where they've all gone...
Notice the chamfer on the glacis joint.
It's more pronounced on some examples than others.
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 07:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You can't just show a photo like that and tell us to ignore the tracks. Those give that machine a whole different look. In fact, that whole photo shows some pretty cool differences - the lights and brush guards, the fenders, the blanked out MG port, and the turret profile we previously discussed.
The foundry marks are similar to those on my poor old Suez M-47 from 20 years ago. If Archer was making them back then I was not aware of them. I was still buying Esci M60's just to cut out the foundry marks. Maybe that's where they've all gone...
Notice the chamfer on the glacis joint.
It's more pronounced on some examples than others.
Those 3 bar cleats add quite the unknown variety of outfitting your M47 in shoes, eh?? And yes, the chamfer is quite noticeable on some vehicles as well. All the evidence you point out makes these two vehicles in Pakistan surely M47E1/E2's. I wonder if Takom's kit was conceived from example vehicles in Spain, or Latrun.
And foundry markings on the glacis? To me, nothing gives the M47 a sexier look than adding this feature to the kits!
But alas, back a few years a puppy found that this model was soon to be a chew toy...gone forever. Gone forever you say? Au contraire mon fraire, you think I sat around making just one example of an M47? Oh no my child, I did have 5 going at the same time...still got four! You're not getting rid of me that easy!
Ta dahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
The real deal:
Now, the oddest foundry marking I've ever seen, and I lost the photo somehow, that showed the following markings that I'm certain to 99.97777777777%, came from a M47 hull. I'm only showing it now to see if anyone can authenticate it once again for me. I applied these marking to the M47 I'm going to model as a Somolia M47, but I'm holding off completing that kit until I can see that photo again.
afvaficionado
Joined: February 16, 2010
KitMaker: 160 posts
Armorama: 159 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 10:54 PM UTC
Nice.
Have you come across examples of the cast letters & numbers appearing to be on a slight platform?
I assume its a wooden or metal form that holds the lettering that is pressed too deeply in the sand mold, causing a platform effect on the casting.
In order to replicate it on my models, I added a piece of Tamiya PLA paper between the hull & lettering.
Have a look at reply 127, 5th photo down for the actual hull marking & reply 130 for the mod - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=239.120 -
Mal
Have you come across examples of the cast letters & numbers appearing to be on a slight platform?
I assume its a wooden or metal form that holds the lettering that is pressed too deeply in the sand mold, causing a platform effect on the casting.
In order to replicate it on my models, I added a piece of Tamiya PLA paper between the hull & lettering.
Have a look at reply 127, 5th photo down for the actual hull marking & reply 130 for the mod - http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/forum/index.php?topic=239.120 -
Mal
Removed by original poster on 05/20/20 - 11:08:50 (GMT).
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 - 11:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Nice.
Have you come across examples of the cast letters & numbers appearing to be on a slight platform?
Look at the center of the bottom line of my last photo above, you'll see I did just that. Maybe I need to take another photo later. Paper would have been cool too. I used a piece of .010.
afvaficionado
Joined: February 16, 2010
KitMaker: 160 posts
Armorama: 159 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 - 08:14 AM UTC
Ah, hadn't noticed that. Tamiya PLA paper is very thin plastic sheeting, ideal for that application.
Mal
Mal
kaleu
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 123 posts
Armorama: 112 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 21, 2020 - 06:21 AM UTC
[quote]My conversion/deletions/additions to my Somalia M47 (Testors) turret. Most noticeable addition is rain gutters (which I think was an Italian mod mostly). Feel free to jump in to either confirm or deny. The 'cheek' weld had not been added yet.
[
Thanks for the images. Just curious, what did you use for the rain gutters? Styrene strip or something else?
[
Thanks for the images. Just curious, what did you use for the rain gutters? Styrene strip or something else?
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