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Iranian chieftain tank vs soviet t72 tank
avenue
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Posted: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 - 05:02 PM UTC
To date,there is very little information regarding iranian chieftain tank against iraqi t72 tank.do anyone got information on this suject?
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 - 07:24 PM UTC
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that in the beginning of the Iraq-Iran war an Iraqi T-72 battalion completely wiped out an Irani Chieftain battalion without suffering any losses. I could be wrong here, but as far as I remember the conclusion was that the Iraqis won the battle not because the Chieftain was vastly inferior, but rather because their tactics were superior.
ijozic
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Posted: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 - 08:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that in the beginning of the Iraq-Iran war an Iraqi T-72 battalion completely wiped out an Irani Chieftain battalion without suffering any losses. I could be wrong here, but as far as I remember the conclusion was that the Iraqis won the battle not because the Chieftain was inferior, but rather because their tactics were superior.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nasr

You're presumably referring to this battle, but Iraqi superior tactics sounds more like an oxymoron. From what I've read, they could basically only handle short-length pre-planned limited objectives operations (which is how they managed to defeat Iran in a few hit and run operations at the end of the war destroying the last remaining stocks of Iranian offensive material like tanks, artillery, etc.).

Even this major victory was just a dug-in defense and it worked because the Iranian counterattack operation was poorly planned and executed as the Iranian Islamic revolutionaries have wiped out most of the US trained officer corps (among other things) which would have made short work of the Iraqis.
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Posted: Tuesday, June 02, 2020 - 11:23 PM UTC
Chieftain 120mm apds round will face hardtime just to penetrate t72 frontal armour said at 1200 meter.by contrast t72 even with older apdsfs round has no problem penetrating chiefstain frontal arounr at 1500-1800 meter.
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Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2020 - 12:11 AM UTC
Yep - T72 was the reason for Challenger!
panamadan
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Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2020 - 01:13 AM UTC
What version of the 72 did the Iranians have?
Dan
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2020 - 01:18 AM UTC
"Iraqi superior tactics sounds more like an oxymoron" sort of depends on what the Iraqi tactics are compared with.
If my skills in some area are lousy but yours are worse then my skills are superior to yours BUT my skills can still be inferior to the skills of everyone else in the whole world

Old joke:
"There are two people in a forest, and they run into a bear. The first person gets down on his knees to pray; the second person starts lacing up his boots. The first person asks the second person, My dear friend, what are you doing? You cant outrun a bear. To which the second person responds, I dont have to. I only have to outrun you. "
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2020 - 01:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What version of the 72 did the Iranians have?
Dan



None during the Iran-Iraq war.
In 2012 they had 538 T-72S and 25 T-72M1, don't think they had any at all from 1980 to 1988.

Iraq had 1,000 T-72 Ural (1973), T-72M, T-72M1 and Saddam in service with Iraqi Army in 1990.

Iran-Iraq war:
"The first 100 Soviet-made machines were received shortly before Iraq strained relations with its neighbor. These were the export versions of the T-72 "Ural-1" with a telescopic sight-rangefinder TPD-2-49. From vehicles coming in the Soviet army, they differed in the basic design of the frontal armor protection of the turret, a complete set of ammunition, the lack of anti-nuclear defense." This would be the T-72M.

About Iran and tanks:
From a news article, New York Times, dated May 17th 1995 (Washington = Clinton administration)
"Despite a vigorous behind-the-scenes campaign by Washington, Poland is going ahead with a deal to sell Iran more than a hundred T-72 tanks, Polish officials and Western diplomats acknowledged today.

Thirty-four of the Soviet-designed T-72's, the main battle tank of Russia and the other former Soviet republics and allies, have already been delivered, the Polish Government notified the United Nations last week, in a document that has not yet been made public."

"In the 1970s, the shah of Iran envisioned a large modern tank force to defend against a possible Soviet or Iraqi invasion. For this purpose he supervised the purchase of hundreds of American and British tanks (M60 Pattons and Chieftains, respectively). He also sought to produce the modern British-designed Shir-2 tank in Iran. Yet the 1979 revolution put an abrupt end to these ambitions, while the ensuing purges and subsequent war with Iraq stretched the country's existing tank units very thin.

Iran's main tank factory, located in Dorud in the western province of Lorestan, started out as an upgrade and refurbishment center in the 1960s. During the 1990s, Tehran purchased around 400 T-72 tanks from Russia and assembled some of them from knock-down kits in Dorud. More examples were obtained from Poland and elsewhere.

Aspirations for a fully indigenous MBT came to light soon after the Iran-Iraq War. The first such project was the Zolfaqar/Zulfiqar, a hybrid design combining an M60 power pack and T-72 gun on a chassis developed by the Iranian national army. It was followed by the progressively improved Zolfaqar II and III. The latter closely resembled the American M1 Abrams, at least in outward appearance; in fact, Iran was rumored to have obtained and examined several disabled Abrams tanks in Iraq following the 2003 U.S. invasion. Yet the army's Zolfaqar III never entered production for technical and perhaps financial reasons. Instead, Tehran has pursued a more practical modernization option: upgrading its existing fleet of T-72s via defense industries controlled by the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. The only limiting factor to this approach seems to be the inconsistent availability of T-72 hulls.

Iran has also performed several upgrades to its outdated M47 and M48 tanks over the years, but apparently none of this R&D resulted in a feasible MBT option. In addition, it tried to replace the Chieftain's power pack with a more robust American engine, but that program did not go beyond the prototype stage due to a lack of replacement engines.
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Finally, while technologies can be copied and upgraded, what matters most for battlefield success is instituting the sound tactics, operational doctrines, and organizational frameworks needed to employ those technologies effectively. Iran's combined-arms operations during its eight-year war with Iraq left much to be desired, and its exercises since then demonstrate that it has not yet developed armor forces capable of fighting in a networked, combined-arms environment. By absorbing the lessons of the Syria war and placing more effective modern tanks in its inventory, Tehran will likely try to increase the role of armored forces in its military planning. Yet it is years away from creating a viable tank industry capable of producing modern MBTs on par with the world's most advanced militaries, not to mention using them effectively."
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/iran-may-be-renewing-its-interest-in-armored-warfare

/ Robin
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2020 - 01:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What version of the 72 did the Iranians have?
Dan



They didn't have any T-72s that time but M47/48/60A1s and Chieftains. The Iraqis had T-72s, T-72Ms and M1s.
ijozic
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Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2020 - 02:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"Iraqi superior tactics sounds more like an oxymoron" sort of depends on what the Iraqi tactics are compared with.
If my skills in some area are lousy but yours are worse then my skills are superior to yours BUT my skills can still be inferior to the skills of everyone else in the whole world



Generally, yes, but I don't think it applies here as it wasn't really a battle on an equal footing so that the skills would play a decisive role. Iranian Army was ordered to attack at any cost without proper infantry support (both due to political reasons) on a terrain favoring the defender, while the Iraqis only had to dig in and wait.

If the Iraqis were any more skillful in combined operations, they would have favored better during their offensives or at least manage to exploit such major victories, but they proved themselves completely incapable of doing so (except for those few but vital fore-mentioned short offensive operations at the final stages of war when Iran was already much over-exhausted from the years of bloody and needless offensives into Iraq under sanctions).
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, June 03, 2020 - 05:02 AM UTC
Iranian Anti-Tank missile: One martyr running forward with one anti-tank mine
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