Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
German tanks in Korean War?
HermannB
Joined: October 14, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 02:07 AM UTC
Lets think a little bit outside the box. Lets consider that the assasination of Hitler succeded in 1944 and Germany turned into a Democratic State. The Soviets stopped at the borders of modern Germany by the aid of Western Allies. Then in 1950, Germany joined the UN Forces to stop the Reds in Korea. Which weapons (both air and ground) would be send with the UN Forces?
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 02:24 AM UTC
Reality (almost) beats fiction 
https://www.rokdrop.net/2018/06/south-korea-classifies-germany-as-provider-of-korean-war-assistance/
H.P.
https://www.rokdrop.net/2018/06/south-korea-classifies-germany-as-provider-of-korean-war-assistance/
H.P.
Klaus-Adler
Campaigns Administrator
Joined: June 08, 2015
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 02:27 AM UTC
the problem there that I see is that I don't think the Germans would have had such a prolific advancement in military hardware as Hitler and the Nazis were a driving force in expanding their military presence which involved them ignoring or circumventing the highly restrictive terms of the WW1 surrender agreement.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 04:19 AM UTC
An infantry battalion or brigade just like so many other European states sent. Any tanks would have been from US units. So how about Fleckwear wearing Germans with Stg. 44 riding on a M46.
Maybe some artillery.
Outside of Canada and UK what other UN country sent armor? It was just too far.
Aircraft is interesting. Figure what's the Luftwaffe equivalent of F-51, Corsairs, F-80, F-84?
Do-335, Ta-152 or were they too specialized for interception? Or would you still see a Fw-190F?
Maybe some artillery.
Outside of Canada and UK what other UN country sent armor? It was just too far.
Aircraft is interesting. Figure what's the Luftwaffe equivalent of F-51, Corsairs, F-80, F-84?
Do-335, Ta-152 or were they too specialized for interception? Or would you still see a Fw-190F?
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 04:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Lets consider that the assasination of Hitler succeded in 1944 and Germany turned into a Democratic State. The Soviets stopped at the borders of modern Germany by the aid of Western Allies. Then in 1950, Germany joined the UN Forces to stop the Reds in Korea.
Under these circumstances the Korean War probably wouldnt've occurred at all. Just sayin'...
jphillips
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 04:49 AM UTC
I think so too. Korea would have been a backwater. The real frontline would have been the Oder-Neisse Line. But I like alternate history and you have a fine imagination so definitely go for it. Personally I've always thought it would have been cool if Japanese Ho-Ni III self-propelled guns had been sent to Korea to be tried out.
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 07:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Lets think a little bit outside the box. Lets consider that the assasination of Hitler succeded in 1944 and Germany turned into a Democratic State. The Soviets stopped at the borders of modern Germany by the aid of Western Allies. Then in 1950, Germany joined the UN Forces to stop the Reds in Korea. Which weapons (both air and ground) would be send with the UN Forces?
With five years of tinkering the Panther would have matured to be reliable (solving those gearbox issues), the ME262 would have been developed into a true fighter/bomber, and maybe some of the E-tanks would have carried on. Big stuff like Maus and KT would have been dropped as vanity-projects. Transport was still an issue, but the UK sent tanks as did Canada, so why not Germany?
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 796 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 04:53 PM UTC
Depends on the outcome of the Pacific fighting.
SpeedyJ
Joined: September 17, 2013
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Armorama: 1,150 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 11, 2020 - 05:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextLets consider that the assasination of Hitler succeded in 1944 and Germany turned into a Democratic State. The Soviets stopped at the borders of modern Germany by the aid of Western Allies. Then in 1950, Germany joined the UN Forces to stop the Reds in Korea.
Under these circumstances the Korean War probably wouldnt've occurred at all. Just sayin'...
This makes my day.
Sorry I hate those What If? nonsense. Should either be placed under SF or Satire, History of the World Part II, staring Mell Brooks.
guni-kid
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 521 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - 09:56 PM UTC
Germany wouldn't simply have evolved into a democracy after that coup carried out by a military that was so strongly conservative as the men around Stauffenberg... don't forget that until the early 40ies Stauffenberg himself adored Hitler and what he has done politically and supposedly concerning military successes... The war just would have gone on with a change in personell because neither the UK nor the US was willing to let Nazi-Germany get away in the middle of '44. The overall outcome would have been the same... and even if (crazy BIG if), you do not seriously think Germany would have become an integral part of any UN-like organization a few years after '44, do you? Concentration camps, war crimes and 'final solution' forgotten? War atrocities especially on the eastern front forgotten? US and UK welcome still Nazi-Germany in favor of its former ally the SU? I don't think so, that is as Robert Jan stated: Pure fantasy, and even being in the trashy department!
My point being: Nothing major would have changed in July '44 without Hitler! Just as nothing changed after Hitlers suicide and Dönitz's attempt to negotiate a seperate peace with the western allies...
My point being: Nothing major would have changed in July '44 without Hitler! Just as nothing changed after Hitlers suicide and Dönitz's attempt to negotiate a seperate peace with the western allies...
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - 11:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Germany wouldn't simply have evolved into a democracy after that coup carried out by a military that was so strongly conservative as the men around Stauffenberg... don't forget that until the early 40ies Stauffenberg himself adored Hitler and what he has done politically and supposedly concerning military successes... The war just would have gone on with a change in personell because neither the UK nor the US was willing to let Nazi-Germany get away in the middle of '44. The overall outcome would have been the same... and even if (crazy BIG if), you do not seriously think Germany would have become an integral part of any UN-like organization a few years after '44, do you? Concentration camps, war crimes and 'final solution' forgotten? War atrocities especially on the eastern front forgotten? US and UK welcome still Nazi-Germany in favor of its former ally the SU? I don't think so, that is as Robert Jan stated: Pure fantasy, and even being in the trashy department!
My point being: Nothing major would have changed in July '44 without Hitler! Just as nothing changed after Hitlers suicide and Dönitz's attempt to negotiate a seperate peace with the western allies...
Genghis Khan's empire did not die out with Genghis himself either; his son managed to continue it until he was assassinated. Even then, it divided but did not die out completely.
Mikhail Gorbachev was the Donitz of the Soviet Union; beloved in the West but definitely not by his own countrymen, of any political faction.
Bonaparte84
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 338 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 09:24 PM UTC
What's the point of criticizing a scenario clearly marked as "What-if" and "thinking out of the box" by sticking exactly to how history unfolded? Everyone knows history went another way, that's why it's called whatif... I personally find these thought experiments amusing. If history teaches us one thing, than it's the fact that it alost always could have unfolded very differently, and that deails/coincidence made the whole difference.
If that's not your cup of tea, that's OK, but don't take the fun out of it for others. After all, this site is about building models...
More to the point, I think with the premises you have chosen, Hans Herrmann, I think you need to fill in some blanks. If the Germans really are sending troops to Korea, this suggests the Eastern front is stable or the war against the Soviet Union over/at a standstill. This suggests that German armed forces could have carried on with their development plans, i.e. in terms of tanks, the E-series. Compared to what other armies sent, I'd go for the E-50 or maybe an improved Panther with a Schmalturm. The soldiers could probably have worn Leibermuster camouflage combat dress and the helmets of the NVA style, as those were developed as replacement of the Wehrmacht's Stahlhem.
Keep going, and I very much look forward to seeing what you come up with!
If that's not your cup of tea, that's OK, but don't take the fun out of it for others. After all, this site is about building models...
More to the point, I think with the premises you have chosen, Hans Herrmann, I think you need to fill in some blanks. If the Germans really are sending troops to Korea, this suggests the Eastern front is stable or the war against the Soviet Union over/at a standstill. This suggests that German armed forces could have carried on with their development plans, i.e. in terms of tanks, the E-series. Compared to what other armies sent, I'd go for the E-50 or maybe an improved Panther with a Schmalturm. The soldiers could probably have worn Leibermuster camouflage combat dress and the helmets of the NVA style, as those were developed as replacement of the Wehrmacht's Stahlhem.
Keep going, and I very much look forward to seeing what you come up with!
PasiAhopelto
Joined: October 01, 2016
KitMaker: 514 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 09:51 PM UTC
What if France would have taken more active role in Korean war, and would have sent their Panthers there? They had about fifty in latter half of 1940s. Not sure what was the spare part situation, but from political point of view this is quite much easier option than Germany switching sides in 1944.
German tanks used by Germany in Korea sound unrealistic to me, because Germany was financially in ruins even if there would've been sudden peace with western allies. Possible peace treaty might have required death of Roosevelt in 1944. Churchill was anti-communist so possibly no problem there, and I think Truman was more strongly against Soviet Union than Roosevelt was.
German tanks used by Germany in Korea sound unrealistic to me, because Germany was financially in ruins even if there would've been sudden peace with western allies. Possible peace treaty might have required death of Roosevelt in 1944. Churchill was anti-communist so possibly no problem there, and I think Truman was more strongly against Soviet Union than Roosevelt was.
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 11:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
What if France would have taken more active role in Korean war, and would have sent their Panthers there? They had about fifty in latter half of 1940s. Not sure what was the spare part situation, but from political point of view this is quite much easier option than Germany switching sides in 1944.
German tanks used by Germany in Korea sound unrealistic to me, because Germany was financially in ruins even if there would've been sudden peace with western allies. Possible peace treaty might have required death of Roosevelt in 1944. Churchill was anti-communist so possibly no problem there, and I think Truman was more strongly against Soviet Union than Roosevelt was.
Roosevelt had actually become senile in 1944, and how much actual authority he had by then is questionable. Truman was actually Roosevelt's replacement of his original vice President.
As for Germany, Hitler or no Hitler, everyone was too scared of them not to defeat them completely. Conquering France and most of Europe, conquering much of the Soviet Union, dropping lots of bombs on Britain...really, that bothered people more than the concentration camps, which were not unique to Nazi Germany.
Some German soldiers reportedly were in the French Foreign Legion, but not ex-Wehrmacht ones. And German small arms such as rifles and machine guns were used heavily after the war. But most everything else was already out of date or worn out.
BootsDMS
Joined: February 08, 2012
KitMaker: 978 posts
Armorama: 965 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 18, 2020 - 11:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
What's the point of criticizing a scenario clearly marked as "What-if" and "thinking out of the box" by sticking exactly to how history unfolded? Everyone knows history went another way, that's why it's called whatif... I personally find these thought experiments amusing. If history teaches us one thing, than it's the fact that it alost always could have unfolded very differently, and that deails/coincidence made the whole difference.
If that's not your cup of tea, that's OK, but don't take the fun out of it for others. After all, this site is about building models...
More to the point, I think with the premises you have chosen, Hans Herrmann, I think you need to fill in some blanks. If the Germans really are sending troops to Korea, this suggests the Eastern front is stable or the war against the Soviet Union over/at a standstill. This suggests that German armed forces could have carried on with their development plans, i.e. in terms of tanks, the E-series. Compared to what other armies sent, I'd go for the E-50 or maybe an improved Panther with a Schmalturm. The soldiers could probably have worn Leibermuster camouflage combat dress and the helmets of the NVA style, as those were developed as replacement of the Wehrmacht's Stahlhem.
Keep going, and I very much look forward to seeing what you come up with!
Hear! Hear! If you nothing to say but to disparage don't say it. The site is clearly labelled as to what it is.
Over the years there have been some truly inspirational builds within this genre; I'm thinking of the likes of the modernized Kpz 70 for instance amongst several - an outstanding build.
Whatever you devise for the Korean War scenario, (Panther with Schmalturm as already suggested - but say, with more convectional suspension not overlapping roadwheels?)I agree that supporting infantry with the NVA-type helmets, camouflage smocks and StG 44 assault rifles would all add interest.
'Looking forward to whatever comes this way.
Brian
barkingdigger
Associate Editor#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 12:28 AM UTC
Bear in mind the real West German Border Guards (not the Army) of the 50s/60s wore WW2 Stalhelms for several decades after the war! They even used KAR 98Ks and MG42s "borrowed" from France. So it is entirely possible in this "What If" scenario for the German troops to look a lot like WW2 troops...
Whatever anyone says about the underlying premise, this type of "what if" allows for a lot of interesting possibilities!
Whatever anyone says about the underlying premise, this type of "what if" allows for a lot of interesting possibilities!
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 12:33 AM UTC
Do something that was likely to be deployed that was left over. Korea was a come as you are party.
Remember that the Canadians came with Achilles, there was no longer a credible anti tank mission so they transitioned to Sherman's. The French didn't put Panthers in Indo China because they were trouble enough to keep running in France let alone thousands of miles away and you dont use tank killer heavy tanks against guerrillas. The Chinese had IS-2s but they never were sent south. The T-34 and Su-76 were sufficient.
I'd go with German rocket artillery and AAA halftracks or the self propelled E-series heavy artillery. That's worth the weight, space and cost of shipping around the world.
If you must do a Panther, the IR equipped vehicles would have been perfect to counter the night attacks.
Remember that the Canadians came with Achilles, there was no longer a credible anti tank mission so they transitioned to Sherman's. The French didn't put Panthers in Indo China because they were trouble enough to keep running in France let alone thousands of miles away and you dont use tank killer heavy tanks against guerrillas. The Chinese had IS-2s but they never were sent south. The T-34 and Su-76 were sufficient.
I'd go with German rocket artillery and AAA halftracks or the self propelled E-series heavy artillery. That's worth the weight, space and cost of shipping around the world.
If you must do a Panther, the IR equipped vehicles would have been perfect to counter the night attacks.
guni-kid
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 521 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 01:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What's the point of criticizing a scenario clearly marked as "What-if" and "thinking out of the box" by sticking exactly to how history unfolded? Everyone knows history went another way, that's why it's called whatif... I personally find these thought experiments amusing. If history teaches us one thing, than it's the fact that it alost always could have unfolded very differently, and that deails/coincidence made the whole difference.
If that's not your cup of tea, that's OK, but don't take the fun out of it for others. After all, this site is about building models...
[...]
I guess then we are all good, because I don't see anyone criticizing as much as debating, exactly what the forums are for IMO.
And as I said before: Call it whatever you want, I call it pure fantasy (just lacking the Orks and Elves
)... But seriously: If you don't want to take any historical context into account and create a total fantasy based scenario that's fine with me, and then we truly do not need to debate any historical context, indeed. Only one thing: No serious debate over what Germany would have sent to Korea is possible originating from actual facts then... Simply because you can't have it both ways I guess... Anyway: Build on and build what you want, it's our and your hobby, so you decide what's in it for you!
joepanzer
Joined: January 21, 2004
KitMaker: 803 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 01:24 AM UTC
I don't think that Germany would be in any position to send any equipment anywhere. By that time in 1944, the cities, roads and infrastructure had already been bombed to heck. Germans had been at war since 1939 (earlier if you want to include the Anschluss and Sudetenland/Czech takeover). and were exhausted. Also, pretty sure no matter who was in charge, they wouldn't want the a Third occurrence of attempted German expansion during a single century. They needed to be "monitored" and 6 years wouldn't have been enough time.
And I apologize if I have offended anyone.
And I apologize if I have offended anyone.
guni-kid
Joined: July 21, 2007
KitMaker: 521 posts
Armorama: 514 posts
Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 01:54 AM UTC
Exactly my point: The original question was: What would Germany have sent to Korea if Stauffenbergs coup (July 1944) had been successful. This insinuates a single directed causality: BECAUSE Stauffenberg succeeded, Germany would have sent stuff to Korea. Needless to say that this very much seem like an inadmissable causality, especially without looking at the circumstances of that time and without filling in the blanks...
So, what would have happened if Stauffenberg had succeeded? Nothing much different than what had happened anyway IMO, maybe the war would have been over earlier, but under one condition and one condition only: the unconditional surrender of Germany, the very same thing that happened anyway... Even if history had taken a crazier turn, then there needs to be much more explained on what would have been happening then... maybe there wouldn't have been a Korean war at all? I don't know, all this is very vague and more like reading tea leaves...
From a very technical standpoint: What would have happened with military developments if Nazi-Germany had somehow managed to survive the war? I don't know, what about the development of the MBT? Missiles (Germany then still as pioneer on that field)? Atomic weapons? You name it...
So as long as we agree on the fact that everything after that "What if" is based on fantasy, you're free to place whatever German armor into a "What if Korean War" scenario suits you I guess... put in what you like and you could always come up with a story how it happened... that's the nice thing about "What if": Just write your own story! Just do NOT attempt to ground it effectualy on true events... (the important word being "effectualy" here!)
So, what would have happened if Stauffenberg had succeeded? Nothing much different than what had happened anyway IMO, maybe the war would have been over earlier, but under one condition and one condition only: the unconditional surrender of Germany, the very same thing that happened anyway... Even if history had taken a crazier turn, then there needs to be much more explained on what would have been happening then... maybe there wouldn't have been a Korean war at all? I don't know, all this is very vague and more like reading tea leaves...
From a very technical standpoint: What would have happened with military developments if Nazi-Germany had somehow managed to survive the war? I don't know, what about the development of the MBT? Missiles (Germany then still as pioneer on that field)? Atomic weapons? You name it...
So as long as we agree on the fact that everything after that "What if" is based on fantasy, you're free to place whatever German armor into a "What if Korean War" scenario suits you I guess... put in what you like and you could always come up with a story how it happened... that's the nice thing about "What if": Just write your own story! Just do NOT attempt to ground it effectualy on true events... (the important word being "effectualy" here!)
Tank1812
Joined: April 29, 2014
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 886 posts
Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 02:19 AM UTC
I think the closest what if scenario would have played out similar to Japan. I think no offensive weapons would have been allowed in Germany, so even if they joined in time for Korea my thought would have been only non offensive vehicles would have been deployed so any transportation type vehicles would have been my guess.
If you where to play out offensive vehicles, then the small Hetzer type or artillery type vehicles is what would have been used, imho.
If you where to play out offensive vehicles, then the small Hetzer type or artillery type vehicles is what would have been used, imho.
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 2,408 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 03:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Whatever anyone says about the underlying premise, this type of "what if" allows for a lot of interesting possibilities!
That largely depends on you definition of 'what if'. The way I understand it, such projects are usually based on certain historical plausibilities. If they're not, they fall into a different category.
Changing a major event in the history of human mankind (total allied victory following the unconditional surrender of Nazi Germany and its allies) but at the same time expecting the rest of the history that followed to remain the same (the Korean War as it was fought) is more of a sci-fi scenario than plausible, alternate history. It's a bit like asking how would WW2 looked like without Hitler or the Cold War without Stalin. There's a fairly good chance that neither of them wouldn't have happened at all.
The same goes for the Korean War: its roots are precisely in the balance of powers that was shaped by the events ending WW2 in '45 and in the fact that Chinese communists defeated the nationalists in '49 (which also has a lot to do with the former). Change any of those two elements (I could name a few more) and you'll get a completely different scenario.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 05:49 AM UTC
There are workable scenarios but it would take a bit of imagination and work. But nothing that isn't similar to Fatherland or Man in the High Castle or some of Harry Turtledove's books.
long_tom
Joined: March 18, 2006
KitMaker: 2,362 posts
Armorama: 2,005 posts
Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 12:18 PM UTC
Just as there would have been ultimately little difference even if Hitler were successful assassinated, the Cold War would have happened without Stalin; it began but certainly didn't end with him. Trotsky was purportedly no nicer than Uncle Joe, and if Hitler never existed, there were certainly others who could have taken over a demoralized Germany. China's becoming Communist was the result of Chang Kai-shek's ineptitude and treachery, and he lost popular support due to bad decisions which caused misery in China.
The problem with alternate history is how things don't necessarily change by substituting one event or person for another.
The problem with alternate history is how things don't necessarily change by substituting one event or person for another.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Friday, June 19, 2020 - 09:51 PM UTC
Hitler dies in July 1944(this is in the book Disaster at D-Day )
The war ends in the west that fall. Churchill and FDR meet with Stalin to end the war in the east so that they can all concentrate on Japan.
The war ends in the Spring of 1945 with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria before the Atomic bomb is perfected.
Korea is still partitioned.
The Kuomintang still loses to Mao.
Germany has elections as the occupation begins. It is not nearly as devastated as it would be in our timeline and Russia never occupies Eastern Europe though most of those governments are subverted in coups (as actually happened in a couple post war)
Germany is a stable republic in 1950. Elements of the German army and air force are dispatched to Korea as a sign of goodwill by the new Germany. It mostly consists of medical personnel, artillery and a squadron of fighter bombers with a token infantry battalion (like France) that is actually assigned to fight along side the British in a composite unit.
A touch of imagination and knowledge of what did happen and what could have happened.
The war ends in the west that fall. Churchill and FDR meet with Stalin to end the war in the east so that they can all concentrate on Japan.
The war ends in the Spring of 1945 with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria before the Atomic bomb is perfected.
Korea is still partitioned.
The Kuomintang still loses to Mao.
Germany has elections as the occupation begins. It is not nearly as devastated as it would be in our timeline and Russia never occupies Eastern Europe though most of those governments are subverted in coups (as actually happened in a couple post war)
Germany is a stable republic in 1950. Elements of the German army and air force are dispatched to Korea as a sign of goodwill by the new Germany. It mostly consists of medical personnel, artillery and a squadron of fighter bombers with a token infantry battalion (like France) that is actually assigned to fight along side the British in a composite unit.
A touch of imagination and knowledge of what did happen and what could have happened.
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