Hi guys,
I am a little confused concerning the distinction between ODS and OIF marine M1A1's.
AFAIK MCS and late style EAPU (with NATO plug) and the turret basket extension are unique OIF features. Does this extend to the three thermal ID plates carried on the turret and the orange air recognition panels, too? What else distinguishes an ODS from an OIF marine M1A1??
Can anyonle please help?
thanks a bunch!
Andreas

Actually, USMC did not have M1A1 tanks diring ODS in 1991. The M1A1s that worked with the Marines were the Tiger (3rd) Brigade from US Army 1st Cavalry Division that was attached to USMC to give them more firepower. The Marines still had M60A3 tanks at that time. The Marines began receiving M1A1s in the mid '90s after there was a concern (well justified) that M60A3 tanks were no longer a viable weapon system against modern threats. When they did receive them, they were with bustle rack mounted APUs and they switched the smoke grenade launchers to individual tube style launchers with 8 tubes as in the Dragon M1A1 USMC model. The Missle Countermeasure Device (MCD) was first used in OIF. Combat ID Panels (CIPs) have been used since ODS when it was discovered that we needed a better way to ID friendly forces. They are seen on training missions as welll as in OIF, the same is true for the orange VS-17 panel which is an air recognition symbol.

Actually the Marines never fielded the M60A3 tank. They used the M60A1 RISE/Passive w/ERA during Desert Storm. They also borrowed two battalions' worth of M1A1 and M1A1HA tanks from US Army POMCUS sites in Europe.

As far as whether or not the M60A3TTS tank was still a viable weapon system, several US Army CONUS divisions still were equipped with the M60A3TTS during Desert Storm, 5th Mech at Polk and 4th Mech at Carson come to mind. The USMC M60A1 tanks fought with distinction in the liberation of Kuwait City, and the A3 is a better tank than the A1. The M60A3TTS is a superb tank.

ups, must have been a little late ydy .... ... should have know that ... thanks for setting my head straight HeavyArty ...

But the Marines did use M1A1 tanks during Desert Storm. Basically the old Tamiya M1A1 is a good representation of the early M1A1 (non-heavy armored) that was most common during ODS. Although the units from Germany had already fielded the late M1A1 Heavy Common.

Since the Marines had a mixture of both early and late M1A1s in ODS you could see two track types (T-156 and T-158) and sprockets with and without track retaining ring.

OIF tanks use the newer T-158 tracks, and there is a mixture of tanks with and without retaining rings. There is even a third type of sprocket, one with scalloped inside edge. The Marines went with the 4-shot smoke discharger but uses a pair per side (8 per side/16 total). This is the same type the US Army has been using on the M113 and Bradley (light tracked vehicles) for over 20 years.

As HeavyArty stated the additional details needed. It is not impossible to upgrade an older ODS tank to OIF, but it would probably be cheaper and easier to just buy the newer one by DML or Tamiya (ok the Tamiya one may not be cheaper!).

I have been a tank commander on both the M60A3 and the M1A1, and I can tell you that the M60A3 can hang with the best of them. It is an outstanding piece of equipment.

well, I am currently building two M1A1's side by side ... one ODS and on OIF, both DML kits. The ODS will need the army style smoke dischargers. The OIF is the latest kit OOTB plus a few bits and pieces. I am doing them for the campaign so they should not be my last M1's
I plan on rebuilding the older Tamiya kit into an early M1A1 with the tracks you mentioned Sabot and a few more things to make it look distinctively different ... btw, what about the EAPU? If all USMC M1's came from Army stocks and out of Gmy mostly how good is the chance to have met one of them without that? I have difficulties finding good ODS pics on the web, has anyone got a good ODS source?
thanks for helping ... when does the next M1 campaign start????

We didn't use the external APU (rear hull mounted) in Germany. That was mainly a stateside device used to save money (conserve fuel). In Europe during the Cold War, we had a better budget and got the latest equipment first.

Any tank pulled out of European POMCUS stocks would not have had the APU. The turret mounted APU was another post Desert Storm development and was not used during ODS.

So the chances that a stateside Army tank with a hull APU meeting up with a European based tank without one during ODS is pretty good. Fort Hood's 2AD Tiger Brigade supported the Marines and the two types of tanks probably mingled.

As to what the Marines used during OIF vs. what the Army used, there is quite the variation based on the vehicles that came from the states, some that came from the pre-po (pre-positioned) at Kuwait and some that came from the pre-po afloat (Marines).

Of course the real experts will correct any of my misstatements. Use any information I give you with caution, I do not pretend to be an expert on Abrams tanks.

Would army units also have the VS-17 panel (in OIF). If so how big is it (in 1/35 or 1/1)?

Yes, we used the VS-17 panels. I do not know the size of them.

Would that be on just M1A1s? Or would they be on A2s? Everyone builds A1s and sub-variants of such, its hard to find details on A2s

A VS-17 is 2' x 6'

Thanks for the size Matt. VS-17 panels are a standard vehicle issue item. IIRC just about every tank had two of them. I also believe every vehicle had at least one (trucks, APCs, etc.).

What do I need to do to the Dragon USMC M1A1HA to make it a USMC OIF M1A1?

Thanks

Basically the only addition is the Missle Countermeasure Device (MCD) on the hell hole cover on front left of turret. Also need to add CIP squares and panels to turret front, sides, and rear. All of these are avaiable in the new DML OIF Marine M1A1 kit.

Thankyou kindly for the advice, it is appreciated Is it worth trying to scratchbuild these particular additions?

So, does this mean you could pilfer a smoke discharger from a Tamiya M113 kit to use as the more accurate USMC version of dischargers mounted on their M1A1's in OIF??

I ask, because I'm building a Task Force Tarawa Abrams, and have been told the smoke dischargers that come with the HA kit are the incorrect ones.

Tread.

Also, does someone know a source for a pic of a loaded USMC M1A1 discharger?
TIA

You would need two new Tamiya M113A2 OIF kits to get enough smoke dischargers for one USMC M1A1 tank, but yes, it should be possible to use them with some modifications.




Here you are:



Regards,
Pawel

Wow Vodnik,

Mighty quick response sir! And as usual, very helpful.

I suppose I could use one of the piece's from the M113A2 OIF kit and cast enough copies, but that 'splayed' look of the discharger would make it a wee bit tougher. But, no worries.

It just so happens I already have the new Tammy 'desert version' kit, so I may just have to play with it.
One other question....is that rather attractive 'Chartruese' like colour on the unexpended ends of the discharger tubes the right one?
If so, I just checked my Tamiya colour options and XF-71Cockpit Green (IJN) seems to be a pretty decent match.

Tread.

Yes, the pale green color of the smoke grenades is correct.

Hi guys, I recently completed an article for the conversion of the old Tamiya M1A1 into the M1A2 OIF version. Although not a Marine version, me thinks there's relevence to this topic in regards to the upgrades in general, please check out the article on my website and tell me what you think. Much appreciated! (pardon me if I don't know the technical names of the "parts" of the M1, I'm a newbie with armor)

I've also got a small build up of the M60A1(or M60A3?) with RISE/PASSIVE armor there.. or is it REACTIVE armor..used in ODS? Can't seem to find this info!

http://www.angrydogproductions.com

Nice one Angrydog!
Just wish the pics were of a bit higher res. but that's just for stealing your ideas

Thanks Major Jurgen! Yup I do need to brush up on my digicam skills. Saw the pics of the Abrams on build up..looks great! Haven't started on my Dragon M1A1HA yet..(why's your pics a group build?)

AngryDog,
RISE/PASSIVE refers to certain vehicle upgrades (in this case, RISE for Reliability Improvment of Selected Equipment; PASSIVE referring to a passive night sight), not the armour package. The armour package itself does indeed consist of reactive armour tiles. And the Marines only used the -A1 in Desert Storm, A3 has a 'flap' over the right range finder blister and a cross-wind sensor on the rear turret roof.

Hope this helps!
Cheers,
JIm

Guys Thanks for all your input about the M60, I've just bought another M60A1, this time from Academy, will be doing some detailing on it in the future, then off for sale again. Never figured how popular the M60 variants are. I just got an order to do an IDF M60 Magach 6B!

Coming back to the initial topic of the M1 Abrams ODS/OIF, would appreciate if you all take a look at the completed M1A2 OIF kit at my website
http://www.angrydogproductions.com
and tell me what you think of it?