British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 11:43 AM UTC
I just ruined a Pz. IV I'd spent a lot of hours on.
At weathering stage. Noticed that when I was applying pin wash to top of turret, for some reason the camo looked grimy. Hard to describe exactly, but it seemed to be fairly rough in consistency and catching crap I didn't want on there.
Anyways I tried to sand it down to paint it again but ended up just ruining the turret paint job. Bummed
Does anyone know what I'm describing here? Perhaps my clear coat was too thick?
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: September 10, 2006
KitMaker: 127 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 11:58 AM UTC
Do you mean that the clear coat (satin or matt) was rough or pebbly? What clear coat did you use? Or were the washes/effects you were applying granular?
#123
New Mexico, United States
Joined: November 17, 2008
KitMaker: 1,202 posts
Armorama: 635 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 11:59 AM UTC
Hello Dan,
Would you be able to post a photo to see if we can figure it out.
Thank you,
Don "Lakota"
Working on Campaigns:
1/72 Hasegawa Ki-84 Frank
1/144 Dragon Armor
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 12:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello Dan,
Would you be able to post a photo to see if we can figure it out.
Thank you,
Don "Lakota"
I thought about it. But I sanded off most of the area that was affected (that's how I ruined it). Perhaps I can get a snap of a similar area.
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 12:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Do you mean that the clear coat (satin or matt) was rough or pebbly? What clear coat did you use? Or were the washes/effects you were applying granular?
I was using a satin varnish by Vallejo. I think the coat was rough, even though I couldn't see it before I started weathering.
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: September 10, 2006
KitMaker: 127 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 12:42 PM UTC
Interesting. I've been impressed by the Vallejo varnishes. Their Premier Satin and Matt are now my favourites. Before airbrushing, I thin them with Vallejo's thinner. I have had no problems. And I would be surprised to get a granular finish on an exposed surface, such as a turret top. Usually that happens where air turbulence occurs, such as in deep corners. Adding a retarder usually prevents this.
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 12:44 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Interesting. I've been impressed by the Vallejo varnishes. Their Premier Satin and Matt are now my favourites. Before airbrushing, I thin them with Vallejo's thinner. I have had no problems. And I would be surprised to get a granular finish on an exposed surface, such as a turret top. Usually that happens where air turbulence occurs, such as in deep corners. Adding a retarder usually prevents this.
I see. I was thinning it with water, so perhaps that was the problem. I'm pretty new at this, so it also might just be incompetence on my part.
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 12:53 PM UTC
Dan, there is no such thing as “incompetence” in model building. There is just a learning curve. You used Vallejo thinned with water, but didn’t say what the paint finish underneath was. My first critique here is that water isn’t a good replacement for any proprietary thinner. Secondly, the “varnish” might be affected by either the base coat, or the weathering coat, so what were you using to weather it with? What was the base coat? Also, in my modeling “career” which spans over 60 years now, I’ve only thrown away one model (the Lindbergh Fleet Carrier, also sold as the Yorktown, and various other labels over the years— that kit was pure hopelessness). I’ve always managed to salvage the models I flubbed up (and there have been plenty, trust me). Next time you have a paint problem, before grabbing the sandpaper, try a paint remover, such as good old break fluid, simple green, or oven cleaner. Strip off the paint and start again. Then you can “experiment” again with another finish. You’d be surprised the gems you can salvage from the disasters.
VR, Russ
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: September 10, 2006
KitMaker: 127 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 12:58 PM UTC
It usually takes a while to get the hang of any new product or technique. With every airbrushing session, even with products I'm experienced with, I begin by spraying onto some scrap card . . . just to make sure everything is working correctly. I also use the manufacturer's recommended thinning agents, etc., as opposed to those who insist that they can purchase a 45 gal drum of brake fluid (or whatever) and use it for thinning any product out there with "just as good results". I just don't have room for the 45 gal drum.
Another trick to try, which I learned from Spencer Pollard, for getting rid of any rough surface (before or after a clear coat) is to spray the area with the PROPER proprietary thinner . . . just the thinner. It will often smooth out the pebbling.
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: September 10, 2006
KitMaker: 127 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 01:02 PM UTC
And I agree with Russ. If it comes down to it, just strip off the paint and start again. No shame in that, we've all done it.
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 01:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Dan, there is no such thing as “incompetence” in model building. There is just a learning curve. You used Vallejo thinned with water, but didn’t say what the paint finish underneath was. My first critique here is that water isn’t a good replacement for any proprietary thinner. Secondly, the “varnish” might be affected by either the base coat, or the weathering coat, so what were you using to weather it with? What was the base coat? Also, in my modeling “career” which spans over 60 years now, I’ve only thrown away one model (the Lindbergh Fleet Carrier, also sold as the Yorktown, and various other labels over the years— that kit was pure hopelessness). I’ve always managed to salvage the models I flubbed up (and there have been plenty, trust me). Next time you have a paint problem, before grabbing the sandpaper, try a paint remover, such as good old break fluid, simple green, or oven cleaner. Strip off the paint and start again. Then you can “experiment” again with another finish. You’d be surprised the gems you can salvage from the disasters.
VR, Russ
It was Tamiya dark green/dark yellow underneath.
Maybe I will try stripping the paint off with over cleaner. Do you just let it soak?
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 01:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
And I agree with Russ. If it comes down to it, just strip off the paint and start again. No shame in that, we've all done it.
Tom,
I appreciate the helpful replies.
#123
New Mexico, United States
Joined: November 17, 2008
KitMaker: 1,202 posts
Armorama: 635 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 01:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
And I agree with Russ. If it comes down to it, just strip off the paint and start again. No shame in that, we've all done it.
Yep, I've sometimes just painted it all over again without stripping. I have used thin layers of acrylic and didn't have a problem. Like Tom said, we've all done it before.
BTW-I've never met an incompetent modeler, just some with more experience than others.
Good luck, stay safe, keep modeling,
Don "Lakota"
Working on Campaigns:
1/72 Hasegawa Ki-84 Frank
1/144 Dragon Armor
Queensland, Australia
Joined: August 06, 2005
KitMaker: 3,353 posts
Armorama: 3,121 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 02:10 PM UTC
Never, ever had to strip paint once. Okay that is a big fat lie. Stripped plenty of models in my time.
If you are using oven cleaner, firstly use gloves and try not to breathe in the fumes. Get a plastic container to put the kit in, spray on the cleaner and put a lid on it after spraying. Spray outside - yes ovens are inside equipment, but trust me, leave the fumes out there. I usually leave the model overnight and rinse off the cleaner next day. Give it a good brush down with an old paint brush to loosen off any stubborn paint then use soapy water and the brush to wash of the cleaner. When you have finished brushing it down, rinse with clean water. When pouring the cleaner residue and the rinse water away, pour it through an old stocking or fine sieve to catch any parts that may have come loose, especially any etch.
Good luck
As to the initial problem, I use water to thin vallejo for washes, but it separates from the paint quickly and seems to break it down as well. This may be the reason for the problem. Or, the grainy texture may be because you sprayed the clear coat from too far away from the model or when the humidity was high. The paint can start to dry before it lands on the surface, hence the tiny gritty particles.
On the Bench:
Dust, styrene scraps, paint splotches and tears.
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 02:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Dan, there is no such thing as “incompetence” in model building. There is just a learning curve. You used Vallejo thinned with water, but didn’t say what the paint finish underneath was. My first critique here is that water isn’t a good replacement for any proprietary thinner. Secondly, the “varnish” might be affected by either the base coat, or the weathering coat, so what were you using to weather it with? What was the base coat? Also, in my modeling “career” which spans over 60 years now, I’ve only thrown away one model (the Lindbergh Fleet Carrier, also sold as the Yorktown, and various other labels over the years— that kit was pure hopelessness). I’ve always managed to salvage the models I flubbed up (and there have been plenty, trust me). Next time you have a paint problem, before grabbing the sandpaper, try a paint remover, such as good old break fluid, simple green, or oven cleaner. Strip off the paint and start again. Then you can “experiment” again with another finish. You’d be surprised the gems you can salvage from the disasters.
VR, Russ
It was Tamiya dark green/dark yellow underneath.
Maybe I will try stripping the paint off with over cleaner. Do you just let it soak?
Dan, yes, for a few hours. Frankly, I’ve had better luck with brake fluid and a toothbrush with some gentle scrubbing, then a rinse with cold water (be sure to have a pan positioned under the rinse so no stray parts go down the drain). The best “oven cleaner” I’ve ever used was the kind made for outdoor grills. Careful though, some of these are a bit caustic, so wear gloves while “stripping”.
VR, Russ
Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 02:21 PM UTC
Quoted Text
...I've never met an incompetent modeler, just some with more experience than others.
Good luck, stay safe, keep modeling,
Don "Lakota"
I wholeheartedly agree with Don. And guess how they got that experience?
VR, Russ
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 04:16 PM UTC
My other half's nail polish remover seems to be stripping the paint.
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 04:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Interesting. I've been impressed by the Vallejo varnishes. Their Premier Satin and Matt are now my favourites. Before airbrushing, I thin them with Vallejo's thinner. I have had no problems. And I would be surprised to get a granular finish on an exposed surface, such as a turret top. Usually that happens where air turbulence occurs, such as in deep corners. Adding a retarder usually prevents this.
I see. I was thinning it with water, so perhaps that was the problem. I'm pretty new at this, so it also might just be incompetence on my part.
I always recommend that to prevent headaches use the thinners provided by the paint manufacturer. Vallejo paint? Vallejo thinners. Ammo paint? Ammo thinners. Tamiya? Tamiya thinners. Cuts down on the headaches and paint stripping.
Washington, United States
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 05:16 PM UTC
Have you watched these videos? They're quite good and can show you some great techniques.
Mig Jimenez Painting Master Class at IPMS Stockholm 2014 Day1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEVBp530bEUMig Jimenez Painting Master Class at IPMS Stockholm 2014 Day 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV3MFIHr62oWashington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 05:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My other half's nail polish remover seems to be stripping the paint.
Careful, nail polish remover is basically acetone. Acetone has a tendency to eat holes in polystyrene, or soften it to a point it becomes malleable. Acetone is far harsher than the products I mentioned above, although like lacquer thinner, it will indeed remove paint. The other issue with acetone is it may change the chemical balance in polystyrene causing it to harden or crack over time. Then you also have the risk of life and limb when your better half finds her bottle of nail polish remover is empty when she’s getting ready to paint a new color on her nails.
VR, Russ
#084
Quebec, Canada
Joined: September 14, 2005
KitMaker: 2,485 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 06:21 PM UTC
To add to what Russ has already mentioned about Acetone,
any parts that may have been attached with CA will probably
fall off as Acetone attacks and breaks the bond created by CA.
British Columbia, Canada
Joined: June 28, 2020
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 133 posts
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2020 - 06:41 PM UTC
Connecticut, United States
Joined: April 02, 2005
KitMaker: 3,608 posts
Armorama: 3,092 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2020 - 12:44 AM UTC
To remove Tamiya paint, all you have to do is immerse the model in isopropyl alcohol. The paint will dissolve within 30 minutes.
Best,
Matt
SSG, INF, USA (Ret.)
"I am waiting for the tanks, and the Americans."
General Philippe Petain, September 1917
Manitoba, Canada
Joined: September 10, 2006
KitMaker: 127 posts
Armorama: 106 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2020 - 01:18 AM UTC
Dan, a couple more thoughts this morning.
Tamiya makes a paint remover, it's great. Works on enamels too and does not damage styrene. As mentioned, alcohol strips Tamiya too, as does Windex.
If I'm worried about pebbling, I will add some retarder to the mix. Tamiya makes one of their own, as does Vallejo. With their thinner and retarder, I have successfully airbrushed Vallejo's thick Model Color brush paints.
Your airbrush nozzle size may be contributing to the problem of paint drying too quickly. I use a .2 mm nozzle for most of my work, BUT when spraying larger areas, such as for the primer coat or overall clear coats, I find a .3 mm works much better.
Florida, United States
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 22, 2020 - 02:42 AM UTC
If you have a built model that you no longer care for, you can practice your paint methods on that "mule" (or in case of an aircraft, an "iron bird"). You can remove the coats of paint numerous time with other methods mentioned here, giving you a clean slate each and every time. One other thing...never spray any medium in a high level of humidity...it will give a whitish-gray hue to your finish. Try and keep your humidity level between 35% and 65% in your home. I've been building 50 years, and I always keep a "mule" around (new, modern products, and methods, are always changing).
IPMS number 506
AMPS number 711
