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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Interesting Iwo Sherman pic
DHarper
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Posted: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 04:21 PM UTC




Here is an interesting pic of a 3rd Tank Battalion mid-production M4A2 on Iwo. I don't recall ever seeing this turret on a mid-production M4A2 hull before. I have been logging all of the casting numbers and other code data, for as many Marine tanks as I can find. You can see that this one has a block of raised casting/production data on the right side of the turret, also a curious thing.

The original photo caption says that this is a knocked out tank that was returned to duty on Iwo, the added armor plate that the Marine is touching, covers the hull penetration that knocked out the vehicle originally!

The second photo is said to be the same tank, taken the same day, But its most likely another tank from the same unit.
Kencelot
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Posted: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 10:22 PM UTC
Something odd about the turret appliqué armor, could be the picture playing tricks? Is it or was it normal to have space between the appliqué and the turret? It's just that there is an unusual amount of shadow at the bottom edge. Could it just be that the appliqué just did not conform well with the turret's shape and they did away with the bottom weld?
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 11:22 PM UTC
Ken: From what I have seen, they usually didn't bother with welding the bottoms of applique. No need, really.

Love those Sherman pics! Anyone else notice the backward wading stack?
bracomadar
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 12:01 AM UTC
Not getting off topic here, but does that guy look like Bill Guarnere to anyone else?
Alpenflage
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 12:02 AM UTC
Always good seeing pics of USMC M4A2's, esp those on Iwo.

I will say this, the 1st pic demonstrates common Marine "field expediency" in typical fashion. Afterall, the other Marine motto is "Semper Gumby". This translates from Latin as "Always Flexible" :-)

Semper Fi, Marines !!

Alpen
TreadHead
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 12:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Ken: From what I have seen, they usually didn't bother with welding the bottoms of applique. No need, really.

Love those Sherman pics! Anyone else notice the backward wading stack?


Actually Hollowpoint, I did notice it when Dave put it up over at Planetarmour. I originally became aware of this choice of mounting the rear stacks facing rearward on Marine Sherman's when I read thru the Osprey Modeling Manual #14, where a 5th Marine Division, V Amphibious Corp Sherman is also depicted with stacks like this on Iwo.
One of the PTO Shermans, I'm ref-surfing for right now will be depicted wearing it's stacks in this fashion.
But, if I use an M4 'mid' (Tammy 'early' kit), the space between the front and rear stacks is mighty wide, and placing the stack facing to the rear will only accent that.

Tread.

Humphf!.........just noticed the shiny new 'Call Sign' arrangement..........nice one Jim! ;-)
ShermiesRule
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 11:43 AM UTC
Actually I have always wondered about why both stacks faced forward. I mean the intake could face forward so that cool air can easily go in. However I have always thought that the heated exhaust should point backwards.

I think it was the movie The Halls of Montezuma that they had Shermans with waders with intake forward and exhaust backwards.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 11:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Something odd about the turret appliqué armor, could be the picture playing tricks? Is it or was it normal to have space between the appliqué and the turret? It's just that there is an unusual amount of shadow at the bottom edge. Could it just be that the appliqué just did not conform well with the turret's shape and they did away with the bottom weld?


The MWO that added the applique did not require welding the lower edge, probably because it would be difficult to do without removing the turret.

The procedure had the mechanics first place the plates on the turret and mark their outline, then check to see that they matched the contour of the turret within 1/8 inch. Weld metal was then applied to the inside of the plates to get that 1/8 inch fit. This might have raised the edge out a bit, or it might be just that the cast applique pieces were 1/4 thicker than the rolled ones. Either or both could make a deeper shadow.

That is an unusual turret marking, David, but note that it is not from Union Steel Castings. Have the others you've noted been of this marking style or the USC style with the serial number on both sides (and sometimes the bustle) and the drawing number on one side (or sometimes on the bustle)?

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 12:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Here is an interesting pic of a 3rd Tank Battalion mid-production M4A2 on Iwo. I don't recall ever seeing this turret on a mid-production M4A2 hull before. I have been logging all of the casting numbers and other code data, for as many Marine tanks as I can find. You can see that this one has a block of raised casting/production data on the right side of the turret, also a curious thing.


David:

Can you read the data better on the print? It looks to me like:

D50878

PSF 3-44

784

Thx,
KL
Kencelot
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 12:01 PM UTC
TY
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 02:40 PM UTC
On second thought, there might be another explanation for the larger underside shadow. The MWO said the plates should be four inches above the bottom of the turret, which should put them less than one inch above the turret race splash ring. These are obviously much higher, perhaps four inches above the ring by mistake. In that case the plates would sit farther up the turret and the contours would be badly mismatched. So, the deep shadow might be from a much larger than usual gap at the lower edge, filled with weld metal or not.

Good eye.

KL
DHarper
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Posted: Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 09:42 AM UTC
Hi Kurt,

Sorry it took me so long to get back, I have been very busy and I have about 1100 Sherman photos to go through to find the originals. The casting info on the original print is very readable and it is:

D50978

PSF 3-43

734

I will forward all of the casting info I have been able to collect for USMC Shermans if you are interested. I am still in the process of gathering the info from my collection of images.

David
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 01:38 PM UTC
David:

Thanks, I'd appreciate that!

The only M4A2 I have info on was a welded hood tank (S/N 8887) that was issued to the French. It had an early GSC turret, the type with the part number under the pistol port. Unfortunately I didn't get the turret S/N.

KL
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