Also, who has the duckbill rubber band type tracks ?
TIA,
Garry
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Early M4A1 Sherman tracks question?
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 03:32 AM UTC
Did the early Sherman's have the rubber chevron tracks, or the duckbill cleated tracks ?
Also, who has the duckbill rubber band type tracks ?
TIA,
Garry
Also, who has the duckbill rubber band type tracks ?
TIA,
Garry
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 03:46 AM UTC
Howdy Garry,
Being a 'noob' at Sherman's, I will share my best guess on the subject.
The early cast-hull M4A1 Sherm's also had the rubber pad track's, and the metal chevron style. The Italeri M4A1 comes with the rubber pad style tracks.
I know the Tamiya 'Jumbo' kit has the extenders on it's rubber band tracks, and I believe the Sherman 105 Howitzer kit has the same tracks in it's box as well.
hth, and hir...
Tread.
I just know ShermiesRule, Hollowpoint, or even possibly thebear will be by shortly to help me 'dress right!'... ;-)
Being a 'noob' at Sherman's, I will share my best guess on the subject.
The early cast-hull M4A1 Sherm's also had the rubber pad track's, and the metal chevron style. The Italeri M4A1 comes with the rubber pad style tracks.
I know the Tamiya 'Jumbo' kit has the extenders on it's rubber band tracks, and I believe the Sherman 105 Howitzer kit has the same tracks in it's box as well.
hth, and hir...
Tread.
I just know ShermiesRule, Hollowpoint, or even possibly thebear will be by shortly to help me 'dress right!'... ;-)
DRAGONWAGON
Joined: February 05, 2003
KitMaker: 1,041 posts
Armorama: 501 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 04:01 AM UTC
Hi Treadhead...
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Sherman 105mm hasn't got the duckbill tracks in the box.
A great set to use for an early Sherman is the M4 T51 tracks from AFV Club; these are the rubberblock type, which can be build with the duckbill end connectors as well!!
HTH, John.
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Sherman 105mm hasn't got the duckbill tracks in the box.
A great set to use for an early Sherman is the M4 T51 tracks from AFV Club; these are the rubberblock type, which can be build with the duckbill end connectors as well!!
HTH, John.
ShermiesRule
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 04:16 AM UTC
If the early M4A1 survived long enough it could be fitted with any VVHS type track. There were no hard set rules.
However you may want to consider this. The T51 rubber block tracks were notorious for having poor traction especially in mud and grass. Since the early M4A1 had plenty of room for improvement, perhaps you should mate it with the T51
As far as rubber band tracks with duckbills, the Tamiya Jumbo (as previously stated) and the old Tamiya 75mm M4A3 kit# 122. These come in the steel chevron style with duckbills
Kit#122 is not the same as the new release of the Tamiya 75mm M4A3 with 3 infantry figures. Both the newer Tamiya 75mm and 105mm have rubber chevron tracks without duckbills
However you may want to consider this. The T51 rubber block tracks were notorious for having poor traction especially in mud and grass. Since the early M4A1 had plenty of room for improvement, perhaps you should mate it with the T51
As far as rubber band tracks with duckbills, the Tamiya Jumbo (as previously stated) and the old Tamiya 75mm M4A3 kit# 122. These come in the steel chevron style with duckbills
Kit#122 is not the same as the new release of the Tamiya 75mm M4A3 with 3 infantry figures. Both the newer Tamiya 75mm and 105mm have rubber chevron tracks without duckbills
garrybeebe
Joined: November 24, 2003
KitMaker: 1,969 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 04:43 AM UTC
I have the Tamiya early production M4 kit item # 35190, and it comes with the Rubber chevron tracks. Just like the newer M4A3 75mm and 105mm kits have.
If it is like what Alan said and could have used the metal chevron tracks, that is what I will use. I just wanted to be certain first. Thanks for all your input mates!
Garry
If it is like what Alan said and could have used the metal chevron tracks, that is what I will use. I just wanted to be certain first. Thanks for all your input mates!
Garry
752ndTank
Joined: August 03, 2003
KitMaker: 31 posts
Armorama: 27 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 10:00 AM UTC
Garry,
According to Hunnicutt, the early M4A1 was produced with 4 types of tracks:
T48 rubber chevron
T49 parallel bar steel
T51 smooth rubber
T54E1 steel chevron
Be careful, however, about using duckbill end connectors. These were not made available to the frontline tankers until the spring of 1944 at the very earliest. They were intended to reduce ground pressure over soft, muddy ground. Generally speaking, in the MTO and ETO they did not go into widespread use until the fall of 1944, which was rainy and muddy. So their appropriateness depends upon the time frame and location you are modeling. The end extenders could be attached to early M4 and M4A1 models once they were available.
Hope this helps.
Bob
According to Hunnicutt, the early M4A1 was produced with 4 types of tracks:
T48 rubber chevron
T49 parallel bar steel
T51 smooth rubber
T54E1 steel chevron
Be careful, however, about using duckbill end connectors. These were not made available to the frontline tankers until the spring of 1944 at the very earliest. They were intended to reduce ground pressure over soft, muddy ground. Generally speaking, in the MTO and ETO they did not go into widespread use until the fall of 1944, which was rainy and muddy. So their appropriateness depends upon the time frame and location you are modeling. The end extenders could be attached to early M4 and M4A1 models once they were available.
Hope this helps.
Bob
Hollowpoint
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 11:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Garry,
According to Hunnicutt, the early M4A1 was produced with 4 types of tracks:
T48 rubber chevron
T49 parallel bar steel
T51 smooth rubber
T54E1 steel chevron
Be careful, however, about using duckbill end connectors. These were not made available to the frontline tankers until the spring of 1944 at the very earliest. They were intended to reduce ground pressure over soft, muddy ground. Generally speaking, in the MTO and ETO they did not go into widespread use until the fall of 1944, which was rainy and muddy. So their appropriateness depends upon the time frame and location you are modeling. The end extenders could be attached to early M4 and M4A1 models once they were available.
Hope this helps.
Bob
I concur.
Garry -- save those duckbills for another Sherman, unless you are building some sort of battle veteran M4A1(75) that has somehow survived to the late war. From pics I've seen, even those old "survivors" somehow seemed to keep their older tracks.
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 12:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
"...If the early M4A1 survived long enough it could be fitted with any VVHS type track. There were no hard set rules.
As far as rubber band tracks with duckbills, the Tamiya Jumbo (as previously stated) and the old Tamiya 75mm M4A3 kit# 122. These come in the steel chevron style with duckbills..."
This is actually the kit I was thinking of......my bad.
Tread.
Now......to "extend" the question (pardon the pun).
I've been additionally curious about proper 'Grousers', and their authentic applications.
So. Did any M4A1's ever wear proper Grousers, and, what/where/when/How did these 'Grousers' appear most frequently?
Was there a particular AD that liked them?....or a particular unit or Theatre/Timeframe?
And, since I'm sure the venerable 'Sherman Posse' will be part of the responder's (hopefully) to this question.........got any pics to support your statements??????.........
Additionally, for the record, in case anyone is thinking I'm possibly being frivilous.......I learn more during one of these Sherman 'debate thread's then almost any other time I spend researching Sherm's..........so please indulge me my compadre's......
airwarrior
Joined: November 21, 2002
KitMaker: 2,085 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 01:00 PM UTC
Yes some earlier sherman had grousers fitted to the tracks at times, if you look in the "sherman in action" book, there is a picture of Marine(??) shermans going across some sand with grousers fitted, the tanks are M4-A1's, and have applique armor fittted to the hull, but not the turret if I remember correctly.
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 01:11 PM UTC
Howdy airwarrior,
Many thx for the reply. I have the 'In Action' book you speak of....I was just tryin' to get a better idea of when 'Grousers' would have been used instead of End Connectors.
Tread.
Many thx for the reply. I have the 'In Action' book you speak of....I was just tryin' to get a better idea of when 'Grousers' would have been used instead of End Connectors.
Tread.
ShermiesRule
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 01:37 PM UTC
I have rarely seen pic of grousers. Besides the Squadron Sherman in Action pic, the few I did see were specialties like Aunt Jemimas and dozers. This would make perfect sense since they push a lot of weight and need the traction.
airwarrior
Joined: November 21, 2002
KitMaker: 2,085 posts
Armorama: 1,227 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 01:52 PM UTC
Grousers were more for getting traction in slippery terrain, like sand, and duck bills were ment to keep the vehicles from sinking.
752ndTank
Joined: August 03, 2003
KitMaker: 31 posts
Armorama: 27 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 02:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
From pics I've seen, even those old "survivors" somehow seemed to keep their older tracks.
Seems like there's always an exception..... Here's an interesting photo of an old M31 ARV (T-2) of the 752nd that soldiered all the way up the Italian boot to Bologna in late April 1945. The T-2 as you know is based on the old M3 (Lee/Grant) chassis. Take a look at this photo, and you will see it is fitted with duckbill end connectors (first photo on page):
http://www.752ndtank.com/specialdgpage2.html
I also have photos of some old M4's of the 752nd with end connectors, although these are technically mid-production variants (photos not posted).
Hope this helps.
Bob
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