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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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Stupid wash ....
Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: June 09, 2002
KitMaker: 2,029 posts
Armorama: 822 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 03:02 AM UTC
Damn

I just don't seem to get it done.
I have been working on a Sherman for a couple of months now and every time I started a wash (basecoat = enamel and than Future - decals - future again then wash ) it went completely wrong and I had to strip the paint and start again.

After doing this for the third time I was about to give up on painting completely

A couple of weeks ago I was at my local arts store and I had a discussion with the owner about my problem, although he had no experience in modeling he advised me to try a oil medium for the thinning since it would not attack any other paints and thin the oils enough.

I got my self a bottle of quick drying medium and gave it a go.

And ..... yes :-) it worked, it did not attack my basecoat and the wash (total wash) gave a perfect aging finish to the model, this was 3 weeks ago

Well there is a catch: I did mention it was quick drying medium?! Well it still is not cured The damn thing is still sticky on several spots. How the *** should I get it dry? The salesman is at a loss (he refunded me my money because he felt bad about the wrong advice) but that does not help me now.

It looks fine that is why I don't want to strip and start AGAIN! (one way ticket to the trash!)

So if any of you have a suggestion I am all ears

Oh I tried the hair blower technique, no effect

Bummer
Eagle
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Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Joined: May 22, 2002
KitMaker: 4,082 posts
Armorama: 1,993 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 03:15 AM UTC
Ronny,

Bummer indeed dude. Sorry it happened just this way. Tips or tricks on how to get it cured ......sorry not at this moment.

If you give me the specifications on the product (name etc.) I'll be glad to do some search. Might just be no result, but hey....if ya don't try ya don't know...
sniper
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New York, United States
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 03:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text


And ..... yes :-) it worked, it did not attack my basecoat and the wash (total wash) gave a perfect aging finish to the model, this was 3 weeks ago

Well there is a catch: I did mention it was quick drying medium?! Well it still is not cured The damn thing is still sticky on several spots. How the *** should I get it dry? The salesman is at a loss (he refunded me my money because he felt bad about the wrong advice) but that does not help me now.



When first starting out I had a similar problem. I used a product called Turpenoid Natural. I had though it was the same as Turpenoid. So, like you, I did a wash with this stuff. Looked great, never dried! In fact, after letting the model sit for two weeks, the stuff started to attack the glue hodling the model together and it started shedding parts before my eyes!

Eventually, I washed the whole thing with solvent and took it all apart. (Still sitting in a plastic container. Maybe I'll re-build it someday and call it the Phoenix!)

I think you may need to start over.

Go out and buy some Turpinoid or plain white spirits for a thinner. They will evaporate almost immediately when used for your wash.

Like I said, the bad stuff I had was called Turpenoid Natural and is to be used as a brush cleaner, though some folks do use it to thin oil paints.

Remember, oil paints on canvas take a very long time to dry. This is not what we want for our models though. Maybe the guy at the store was confused.

Don't give up yet!

Steve

PS - If you do a search in the forums you will find a couple good threads talking about washes and how to avoid your paints being eaten by them. I use acrylics and then turpenoid washes directly over the top (no clearcoat) with no problems at all.
Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: June 09, 2002
KitMaker: 2,029 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 03:57 AM UTC
Danny,

The stuff I used is from Talens "Painting Medium quick-drying" nr 84.

Steve,

I am not just ready to give in on it, there must be a way to do it.
I have to admit that I am not that fond of acrylics so tat is why I am holing on the old way (lol)

On a other forum (yes yes I also visit other nice modeling sites/forums, but this one is my favorite ) someone suggested to simply put a dull coat over it so it seals everything and that way it should dry whiteout any probs. What do you think?
sniper
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New York, United States
Joined: May 07, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 04:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


On a other forum (yes yes I also visit other nice modeling sites/forums, but this one is my favorite ) someone suggested to simply put a dull coat over it so it seals everything and that way it should dry whiteout any probs. What do you think?


Ronny,

You may want to try to use a clear coat. It ceratinly is a barrier between the base coat and the wash. But, you have to make sure the wash thinned will not attck the clear coat like it did your base.

The nice thing about using a gloss clear coat is that it may be easier to get the wash to flow in the desired area and it makes it easier to remove the excess wash. Decals can be applied on the gloss as well. You can then dull coat after the wash has dried. (Personally, I wash over a dull finish.)

I too do all over wahses, though I think you might as well call them tints, and understand your concern about the paint being eaten.

One thing, make sure your base coat is completely dry before applying the wash. If using enamels, it wont hurt to let the model dry for a couple days. Same with acrylics though I have applied my washes within a few hours of applied acrylics with ablsolutely no problem.

I don't know how you can get your current model dry. Just put it outside in the sun for a few weeks and if it dosen't fall apart...

Sorry I can't help you there.

Steve
Eagle
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Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Joined: May 22, 2002
KitMaker: 4,082 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 04:56 AM UTC
Ronny,

for what it's worth...I just called my dad. He paints landscapes and that sort of stuff using Talens oils... He also uses the no.84 as a medium.

He also experiences some very very long drying times (differs from paint to paint and from day to day), even with the no.84 applied. His advice for doing washes...use regular white spirit or turpentine next time. His words almost where like the ones Steve (Sniper) wrote on this matter.

His 2 cents on the current status... be patient and let it cure. Since you like the way it turned out .....don't damage it now.... Have patience this time and try it the other way on the next project.

Sorry cant be of more assistance here.

Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: June 09, 2002
KitMaker: 2,029 posts
Armorama: 822 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 05:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I don't know how you can get your current model dry. Just put it outside in the sun for a few weeks and if it dosen't fall apart...


Steve you don't know how the weather is here in the low contries, that is for sure :-) :-)
swampfox
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United States
Joined: June 10, 2002
KitMaker: 52 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 06:51 AM UTC
I don't think I've ever had a problem with an oil wash drying and all I use is plain old Mineral Spirits.
TreadHead
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:22 AM UTC
Roadkill.......let's slow it down a wee bit, and get back to the basic facts.....sound good?

O.K.....first, after reading, and re-reading your initial post, I cannot determine any of the dry-times for any of the paint's applied. In other word's, how long did you allow the primer coat to dry and what type of paint was it? Additionally, what type of paint was the base coat and how long did you allow it to dry? NOW.....as to the 'wash'......what type of paint was it, and HOW did you apply it? Please indulge me, and 'ABC me.....O.K.?

Just trying to help.

Tread.
TreadHead
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:26 AM UTC
Oh...for the record, Roadkill. Nothing you do is 'stupid'.....it's ALL experimentation. None of the experienced people here were born doing the right thing when it comes to modeling. We have all 'experimented' until we found the method that work's for US!

my ramble.

Tread.
screamingeagle
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Connecticut, United States
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 09:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oh...for the record, Roadkill. Nothing you do is 'stupid'.....it's ALL experimentation. None of the experienced people here were born doing the right thing when it comes to modeling. We have all 'experimented' until we found the method that work's for US!

my ramble.

Tread.


Hi Roadkill - the Tread man is exactly right. If you give us the ABC,s of your procedure
we can find where & why thing's went wrong.
I apply my oil/enamel washes over matte finish enamels ( without a clear coat ). The trick is 72 hrs dry/cure time ( like Sniper quoted ). I never had any paint lift and in my opinion, the washes capillary action is better over a matte finish.
.....Next time, just stick with the basic's and don't worry about these fancy "quick dry medium " add in potions
When it come's to armor I use enamels exclusively, and I'd be glad to send you my method
( which is easy & basic ) on applying washes. Just shoot me an email.
- ralph
Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: June 09, 2002
KitMaker: 2,029 posts
Armorama: 822 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 01:44 PM UTC
Hi Tread and Ralph, here is my ABC #:-)

Primer: automotive car primer black - ± 48 h
basecoat Humbrol enamel - 1 week
Future - 3-4 days
decals - 24 h
Future - 3-4 days
wash: oils (N&W) + medium - 3 weeks and counting
sniper
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New York, United States
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 11:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Primer: automotive car primer black - ± 48 h
basecoat Humbrol enamel - 1 week
Future - 3-4 days
decals - 24 h
Future - 3-4 days
wash: oils (N&W) + medium - 3 weeks and counting


Ronny,

Sounds like every step is exactly the right way to go except for the no.84 as the wash thinner.

I think this is the problem. Maybe put the model aside in a nice dust free box (maybe with a screen over the top to allow air to flow and facilitate drying) and start on your next project.

I would keep your methods exactly the same except try some plain Turpenoid or White Spirits as the wash medium.

Steve
Bluefalcon47
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Netherlands
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 255 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 04:51 AM UTC
Ronny,

as I mentioned before in the Dutch forum, I have never had any problems with enamel washes over Future. However, I have just tried a new technique (new to me anyway) on my Tamiya 1/48 F-15J. I think it is called the 'sludge wash technique' in FSM. You make a wash of acrylic (or even watercolor paint!) and water, then add about 10% of dishwashing soap. The soap will make it flow better and easier to wipe the excess off. Just slop it on in the spots that you want it, then let it dry. Then wipe off the excess with a damp cloth or tissue. It worked great for me and if you make a mistake, you can wash it all off again without ruining the model! I actually used gouache for this, that I haven't used in over 10 years LOL. Worked great!
Perhaps you could also increase the number of Future coats to make the barrier stronger (if you do one coat now, try two or three).
HTH!
Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: June 09, 2002
KitMaker: 2,029 posts
Armorama: 822 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:26 AM UTC
David,

That is something to try, sounds good

But ... Hooray I have done it #:-) #:-) #:-)

I put a Humbrol Matt Coat on the model and the stickiness is completely gone.
I decides to do a matt coat in stead of a extra gloss coat because my next step is drybruching and now the paint has something to grab on.

Thanks fellows for all your advice
Bluefalcon47
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Netherlands
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 255 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:32 AM UTC
Ronny,

glad to hear it worked out well for you! Now I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope the no.84 medium doesn't 'eat' it's way through your mat coat.....
Keep us posted on that, if you can.
And don't forget to post pics of your Sherman when done!
Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: June 09, 2002
KitMaker: 2,029 posts
Armorama: 822 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 05:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Now I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope the no.84 medium doesn't 'eat' it's way through your mat coat.....


Thanks Dave for those comforting words

I think I am going to sleep next to my model to check on it
screamingeagle
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Connecticut, United States
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 10:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

David,

That is something to try, sounds good

But ... Hooray I have done it #:-) #:-) #:-)

I put a Humbrol Matt Coat on the model and the stickiness is completely gone.
I decides to do a matt coat in stead of a extra gloss coat because my next step is drybruching and now the paint has something to grab on.

Thanks fellows for all your advice


Hi Roadkill - I'm glad everything worked out. Although your method you used look
fine to me also. The only thing is can think of is the " medium stuff " had a
reaction with the enamel paint ( a possibility ).
I'm glad to see you went the way of a matte clear. Even though I don't use this
until the very end, I feel it can't hurt.
As for the Future ...............I have a bottle that's been sitting on my bench for 2 years
and I still haven't touched it ( guess you can tell how i feel about it ).
However, I can definitely recommend Testor's Glosscote ( Lacquer ) for when you
want to gloss over a matte finish for adding decals.
I know Future has worked for many modelers, and I ain't knocking it .............
..........it's just that I am a little " weary " about it.
And those mediums and other potion's ..........I just don't mess with them.
I stick with the basic Enamel, Acrylic's, and Oil's and their own
brand of recommended thinners.
But I am happy to hear your good new's. Next time you know what not to do
"Live and learn ".

- ralph
Bluefalcon47
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Netherlands
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 255 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 05:14 AM UTC
Ronny,

sorry, didn't mean to scare you off or anything...
Just a wild idea that flashed through my mind....
And don't worry, I sleep with my models too (they are stacked in my bedroom mostly) LOL #:-)
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,757 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 04:17 PM UTC
I've been using that "sludge wash" technique lately to learn how to do my first washes.
It's absolutely great for training because I can clean it anytime.
Still, I have the feeling I'll be able to do a better job with oils for the small areas like boltheads.
That's because it's pigmentation is so much finer.
Roadkill
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Antwerpen, Belgium
Joined: June 09, 2002
KitMaker: 2,029 posts
Armorama: 822 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 05:27 PM UTC
Dave,

I had to choose, my wife or my models (boxes) in the bedroom, after long consideration I decides to let my wife in the room. No easy decision though #:-)

Btw: there is no problem, the medium did not attack my basecoat or the matt coat :-)
 _GOTOTOP