i undersntad that all Nato tanks use the 3 colour, green, black and brown colour scheme. Now in the short term future i shall be getting the Tamiya M1A2 or the Tamiya Leopard A6. The problem is although i have seen the NATO pattern on the tanks it does not give me a great understanding of shapes and sizes, and colour mix of the camo. I understand that the American shape of the camo is diffeent to the german one but if someone could post up an image displaying clearly a large section of NATO camo so i could duplicate it would be most appreciated.
Thanks
AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Matthew Toms
NATO colour scheme
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:29 AM UTC
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2004 - 03:41 PM UTC
Quoted Text
i undersntad that all Nato tanks use the 3 colour, green, black and brown colour scheme. Now in the short term future i shall be getting the Tamiya M1A2 or the Tamiya Leopard A6. The problem is although i have seen the NATO pattern on the tanks it does not give me a great understanding of shapes and sizes, and colour mix of the camo. I understand that the American shape of the camo is diffeent to the german one but if someone could post up an image displaying clearly a large section of NATO camo so i could duplicate it would be most appreciated.
Not all NATO tanks use so called NATO scheme. This scheme was developed by Germany and USA for use on their tanks. Since then some other NATO countries developed similar schemes, but there are still countries using completely different camouflage on their tanks. And German and US camouflage is not exactly the same - it was supposed to be, but in reality colors used differ slightly.
In Tamiya Abrams and Leopard kits you will find pretty accurate diagrams with camo patterns for both tanks. Please note that all vehicles of one type have exactly the same pattern of camouflage applied on them, so to make your model accurate you need to try to replicate the pattern specific for that vehicle. If you want, you can download US official military manual for painting US Army vehicles, which among others includes camo patterns for Abrams (it is large 15MB pdf document):
https://www.logsa.army.mil/etms/data/A/015165.pdf.
Pawel
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:23 PM UTC
thank you very much. The question now is if i get the M1A2 will i do desert or NATO?...There is 1 problem with bth of the colour schemes, what paint number in hymbrol would be most accurate for the sand and the NATO colours?..if i decided to get the Leopard i wold use the same paints as used on the NATO M1A2
I think the link does not work because when i click on it, it says cannot find server! Do you think you could fix this please as it sounds an interesting document
Thanks again
I think the link does not work because when i click on it, it says cannot find server! Do you think you could fix this please as it sounds an interesting document
Thanks again
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:44 PM UTC
The link is fine, but to access this document you need to have 128bit encryption enabled in your web browser (if you use Internet Explorer, check Help -> About Internet Explorer -> Cipher Strength) and you also need free Adobe Acrobat Reader program installed.
You also may need to accept the security certificate message that sometimes appears when you access this document.
If you get M1A2 kit you will have several options to build it. The model can be built as USMC M1A1 or US Army M1A1 or US Army M1A2. If you choose to build M1A2 version then you will have to use desert scheme, as only 3-color M1A2 tanks were used for training at Fort Knox and all combat units have desert painted tanks. For M1A1HC you can use both desert or 3-color schemes.
I'm afraid I don't know what Humbrol colors you could use. Long time ago I tried to find Humbrol equivalents for those colors, but I couldn't find good matches and decided to use Tamiya acrylic paints instead. For desert color you can try to get a #AR US 01 paint from White Ensign Models company from UK (http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/acatalog/) - it is a very good match for US desert tan. This paint is an enamel similar to Humbrol paints.
Pawel
You also may need to accept the security certificate message that sometimes appears when you access this document.
If you get M1A2 kit you will have several options to build it. The model can be built as USMC M1A1 or US Army M1A1 or US Army M1A2. If you choose to build M1A2 version then you will have to use desert scheme, as only 3-color M1A2 tanks were used for training at Fort Knox and all combat units have desert painted tanks. For M1A1HC you can use both desert or 3-color schemes.
I'm afraid I don't know what Humbrol colors you could use. Long time ago I tried to find Humbrol equivalents for those colors, but I couldn't find good matches and decided to use Tamiya acrylic paints instead. For desert color you can try to get a #AR US 01 paint from White Ensign Models company from UK (http://www.whiteensignmodels.com/acatalog/) - it is a very good match for US desert tan. This paint is an enamel similar to Humbrol paints.
Pawel
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 01:42 AM UTC
checked my encryption and it is set to 128mb and i have adobe and yet the server still cannot be found. Is there another way of accessing this document. What differences are their between the german and us pattern. If i got the Abrams kit i would definetly do the m1a2 option so i think the the desert paint is a must.
In your opinion vodnik what would be a better buy the Tamiya M1A2 iraqi freedom kit or the Tamiya Leopard a6? I already have an older tamiya m1a1 kit but it looks awful so i want to get the newer one. I would value your opinion in terms of which is the better tank IRL and in terms of the model, if you know
In your opinion vodnik what would be a better buy the Tamiya M1A2 iraqi freedom kit or the Tamiya Leopard a6? I already have an older tamiya m1a1 kit but it looks awful so i want to get the newer one. I would value your opinion in terms of which is the better tank IRL and in terms of the model, if you know
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 03:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
checked my encryption and it is set to 128mb and i have adobe and yet the server still cannot be found. Is there another way of accessing this document.
Right now I also get "server not found" message. Maybe there are just some problems on the network or with the Army server. Keep trying - it should start working soon. And if you still cannot get the file during the next couple of days, I may try to extract a part of this document and send it to you.
Quoted Text
What differences are their between the german and us pattern.
The difference between German and US camouflage is in colors of paints used. Germans use slightly different shades of green and brown paints. But differences are not that big and become unnoticeable once tanks get dusty and dirty.
Quoted Text
If i got the Abrams kit i would definetly do the m1a2 option so i think the the desert paint is a must.
If you want to make it a combat unit vehicle then yes, it is a must.
Quoted Text
In your opinion vodnik what would be a better buy the Tamiya M1A2 iraqi freedom kit or the Tamiya Leopard a6? I already have an older tamiya m1a1 kit but it looks awful so i want to get the newer one. I would value your opinion in terms of which is the better tank IRL and in terms of the model, if you know
I won't even try to say which tank is better IRL. Abrams prooved its value in Iraq, while Leopard 2 didn't participate in any conflict of this scale, so it is simply impossible to tell how it would perform in such situation. The only immediately noticeable advantage of A6 variant of Leopard seems to be the longer barrel, what at least in theory gives better accuracy at larger distance from the target.
As far as kits are concerned, I would say Leopard 2A6 is a better one. Abrams model is also great, but it is partially based on older M1A1 kit and it lacks non-slip coating, which is noticeable feature of real tanks.
Pawel
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 03:58 AM UTC
thanks for the help and i would realy like that document for my modeling as well as interest. I realy cant decide which model to go for, i dont realy mind about the non slip coating i just love the look of all the addons to the m1a2. I hoping US Tan #118 from hymbrol wil be the correct colour for the m1a2 (if i get it)....but i do like the aggresivness and performance of the leopard a6. Also if i get the leopard i will be spending a lot more money. The tank roughly £35, 3 natocolour paints £3:30, undercoat from halfords £3:50 and matt black paint another £1:10
:-) Good job i aint guna pay
thanks for the help
am i right in thinking you are the vodnik with your own web site with the 4 m1a1 model reviews?
:-) Good job i aint guna pay
thanks for the help
am i right in thinking you are the vodnik with your own web site with the 4 m1a1 model reviews?
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 04:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I hoping US Tan #118 from hymbrol wil be the correct colour for the m1a2
I'm afraid it won't be a good color... 118 is a color for a US Air Force aircraft camouflage used during 60's and 70's. It is way too dark and much too brown for US armor desert tan.
I would rather try to use 103 cream or even better 121 pale stone. These colors are also not perfect, but much better than 118.
Quoted Text
am i right in thinking you are the vodnik with your own web site with the 4 m1a1 model reviews?
Yes, that's me.
Pawel
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 06:45 AM UTC
thank for the heads up on the colours. I will analise both before my purchase. Could you give more help in terms of choosing one of the two models, leopard or abrams. Both tamiya, it is giving me great difficulty, and i wish to know which would look the most impresive when an amateur has completed it. All my desert tanks look very boring with no detail due to me not knowing how to wash to bring up the lines of the tank.
What i mean by that is if you look at the picture i have provided on the front part of the hull, the lines, dents and grooves are slightly grey which brings up the detail, whereas on my models the entire model would be bland sand colour. How is this effect done?
My more succesful models are ones with 2 or 3 colour camo patterns due to your attention being taken away from the exact details. Could you help me with this?
Have you got any more luck on the .pdf?
P.S. great web site
What i mean by that is if you look at the picture i have provided on the front part of the hull, the lines, dents and grooves are slightly grey which brings up the detail, whereas on my models the entire model would be bland sand colour. How is this effect done?
My more succesful models are ones with 2 or 3 colour camo patterns due to your attention being taken away from the exact details. Could you help me with this?
Have you got any more luck on the .pdf?
P.S. great web site
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 06:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
All my desert tanks look very boring with no detail due to me not knowing how to wash to bring up the lines of the tank.
The application of wash is very easy, but selection of color sometimes is not. Washes are best applied over the smooth gloss surface, so first step after the basic camouflage color is in place, would be covering the whole model in gloss varnish. Next you apply a wash and two options exist. You can either use classic oil wash - this is made by mixing artists oil paint with turpentine. The second option is so called sludge wash - you use acrylic paints and thin them in water with addition of some dish washing fluid (to break water surface tension). I prefer oil washes. Oil paints do not dry quickly and it is easy to make corrections and remove excess wash even after many hours. Once the wash is completely dry you cover the model with matt varnish.
Honestly speaking I don't know what colors would be the best to do a wash over the desert color tank. I have not painted any such model in many years, so I would have to experiment myself first... This thread may give you some answers: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/34849&page=1.
For 3-color NATO scheme I use black and "raw umber" oil paints for washes.
Quoted Text
Have you got any more luck on the .pdf?
I temporarity put the file here: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/photos/uploads/Vodnik/NATO-015165.pdf
Please download it ASAP and let me know once you are done - I need to remove it form the server soon.
Pawel
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 07:00 PM UTC
thank you very much for al your help, i have downloaded the document and i shall procede to read all 400 odd pages of it :-) I will try and have a go with doing a wash on my models, as it does increases the look of your model. So am i right in thinking i would put the undercoat on 1st, then the base coat of sand, then the wash?..i havnt read the link on washing yet as im doing decorating 
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 09:29 PM UTC
well i have just done this.
I used my old m1a1 abrams which is fully painted (slightly the wrong colour by anyway) and decalled. I mixed some water with some washing up liquid and tamiya XF59 arcylic paint, i thought that is the colour of the surrounding sand so it might work. I applied the diluted wash and let dry and it has made no differenence what so ever to the model. Could you give me a rough idea of what colour i could use, i think i have some oil paints lying around somewhere. Oh..also lets imagine here that i dont know what your on a bout when you say coat the model in gloss paint then matt paint?...gloss and matt paint in sand colour?...realy i need a step by step guide (which is britishised, so materials and products are purchasable and well known in britain) for putting a wash onto a model, nothing fancy, just to bring up the detail, can anyone help me
Also i looked on your web site about created sclae anti-slip surfaces, i think you said you use mr.surfacer 500 or something like that, but i have never heard of it, or anyone i now has heard of it, is there a british stocked equivilant?
EDIT: i have just found some pastels and in the box there is sandy coloured pastel which is lsighly darker than the basr coat of my abrams, i ground up some of the pastel added water so make a mix and added that to my model, would that act as a wash or a mess?
I used my old m1a1 abrams which is fully painted (slightly the wrong colour by anyway) and decalled. I mixed some water with some washing up liquid and tamiya XF59 arcylic paint, i thought that is the colour of the surrounding sand so it might work. I applied the diluted wash and let dry and it has made no differenence what so ever to the model. Could you give me a rough idea of what colour i could use, i think i have some oil paints lying around somewhere. Oh..also lets imagine here that i dont know what your on a bout when you say coat the model in gloss paint then matt paint?...gloss and matt paint in sand colour?...realy i need a step by step guide (which is britishised, so materials and products are purchasable and well known in britain) for putting a wash onto a model, nothing fancy, just to bring up the detail, can anyone help me
Also i looked on your web site about created sclae anti-slip surfaces, i think you said you use mr.surfacer 500 or something like that, but i have never heard of it, or anyone i now has heard of it, is there a british stocked equivilant?
EDIT: i have just found some pastels and in the box there is sandy coloured pastel which is lsighly darker than the basr coat of my abrams, i ground up some of the pastel added water so make a mix and added that to my model, would that act as a wash or a mess?
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 03:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I applied the diluted wash and let dry and it has made no differenence what so ever to the model.
Maybe the color you used was too similar to the color of the camouflage. Generally the wash color should be slightly darker, to create impression of "shadow". Sometimes it is necessary to repeat application of wash a few times to achieve good density of color - it is always better to apply too little and add more later, than to apply too much in one go!
Quoted Text
Could you give me a rough idea of what colour i could use, i think i have some oil paints lying around somewhere.
I would probably try with some ochre or light brown - but do some experiments first.
Quoted Text
Oh..also lets imagine here that i dont know what your on a bout when you say coat the model in gloss paint then matt paint?...gloss and matt paint in sand colour?
No, I mean gloss and matt varnish cote. Varnish is clear / transparent and it does not change the color of paint, just makes the surface smooth and shiny (gloss cote) or flat and lustress (matt / flat / dull cote). For the application of washes, but also for decals, you need smooth gloss cote. Such smooth surface makes the decal adhere much beter and the decal film can disappear (on matt surface it will be visible and you will have so called "silvering" effect on decals). And diluted wash flows easily on gloss surface and collects only on various crevices, nooks, grooves and holes - exactly what we need to create shadow effect.
Once you are done with decals and wash application, you need to apply clear matt (or dull) varnish cote on the model to remove the shine and restore matt surface, as you are building a tank, not a race car
Humbrol sells good quality matt and gloss cotes, both in small cans and in bottles. The stuff in small bottles/jars is better than what they sell in cans.
Quoted Text
I don't know of any equivalent, but I believe Gunze Sangyo Mr Surfacer is available in Britain. Try to get previous issue of Tamiya Model Magazine International. There is an article about new Tamiya Challenger 2 kit and Marcus Nichols used my Surfacer technique on this model. I'm sure he listed the British source for it at the end of the article.Also i looked on your web site about created sclae anti-slip surfaces, i think you said you use mr.surfacer 500 or something like that, but i have never heard of it, or anyone i now has heard of it, is there a british stocked equivilant?
Quoted Text
EDIT: i have just found some pastels and in the box there is sandy coloured pastel which is lsighly darker than the basr coat of my abrams,
You mean oil pastels or dry pastels? If these are dry pastels, then you can use them for weathering your model, but not for wash. Oil pastels are basically useless for modeling.
Once you grind up dry pastel, you get a dry powder, which can be used to add dirt and dust to the model. But you do it by applying the powder directly to the model and use a soft brush to burnish it into the surface in places where you want it to be. You need to seal the pastel later by applying a matt varnish coat, as pastels can easily be smeared with your fingers after application, what would ruin your model. Usually you apply pastels after washes.
Quoted Text
i ground up some of the pastel added water so make a mix and added that to my model, would that act as a wash or a mess?
I'm afraid that would made a mess...
Pawel
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 06:27 PM UTC
thanks for al that help, i now thatmust have taken you some time for your last post, so thanks for going to the trouble!
i am now getting a much better undersntaidng of washes, however what ratio do you make the wash mixture. I have still not decided which model to go for but more than likely i shall buy pot of tamiya arcylic dark brown and then add the water and washing up liquid. So ration do i add the arcylic, water and washing upliquid. I now i should try my self but im on a tight budget so i cant realy afford to buy all this stuff then find out it doesnt work. Sorry if i am asking basic, stupid questions!
i am now getting a much better undersntaidng of washes, however what ratio do you make the wash mixture. I have still not decided which model to go for but more than likely i shall buy pot of tamiya arcylic dark brown and then add the water and washing up liquid. So ration do i add the arcylic, water and washing upliquid. I now i should try my self but im on a tight budget so i cant realy afford to buy all this stuff then find out it doesnt work. Sorry if i am asking basic, stupid questions!
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 07:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
So ration do i add the arcylic, water and washing upliquid.
A tea spoon of water, a drop of dishwashing liquid and a drop or two of paint. It should really be rather a dirty water than a paint. As I wrote before - you can always add more wash or add a bit more paint to it if you see that the wash is not visible enough on the model. Remember however, that well applied wash has to be very subtle. If it is too noticeable it no longer looks right.
Pawel
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 01:26 AM UTC
well i recently bought a Tamiya Nato Brown acrylic paint so i decide to try and use this paint to make a wash for an old abrams tank before i try out on my new Chally 2 and completed Leopard A6. I made the wash with a teaspoon of water. drop of washing up liquid and a drop of paint. When i applied the wash it was very bubbly due to the washing up liquid, is this meant to be normal. I also did not have a full idea of how much you should coat the model with, i did it so it is near enough dripping with the wash. I did not put any gloss varnish on the model before hand does this mean the wash will not work?..i ak waiting for it to dry as i type this
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
Armorama: 3,938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
well i recently bought a Tamiya Nato Brown acrylic paint so i decide to try and use this paint to make a wash for an old abrams tank before i try out on my new Chally 2 and completed Leopard A6. I made the wash with a teaspoon of water. drop of washing up liquid and a drop of paint. When i applied the wash it was very bubbly due to the washing up liquid, is this meant to be normal. I also did not have a full idea of how much you should coat the model with, i did it so it is near enough dripping with the wash. I did not put any gloss varnish on the model before hand does this mean the wash will not work?..i ak waiting for it to dry as i type this
If you apply a wash on the matt paint, the wash is not flowing as easily as on gloss surface. On gloss surface wash usualy doesn't stay on flat surfaces, just collects on crevices and in grooves. On matt surface more of wash remains on flat areas, thus changing the color on larger areas. This way of application is actually called "a filter", not a wash, as wash is meant to just add shadows, while filter modifies the color of the whole surface. But it all depends on the paint you used on your model. Some matt paints are smooth enough to let the wash flow easily, while others have more rough surface and "keep" the wash in place.
There are two ways to apply wash - one is to cover the whole model with wash and let it dry. The other way is to use medium size brush with sharp tip to apply wash only where you want shadows to be. In such case you get a drop of paint on the brush and then gently touch the tip of the brush to the place of the model where you want the "shadow" to start. The wash should than flow off the brush by itself.
As for the bubly wash - probably a bit less washing fluid should be used. As I wrote before I have more experience with oil washes, so I'm guessing a little here.
Pawel
USArmy2534
Joined: January 28, 2004
KitMaker: 2,716 posts
Armorama: 1,864 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:04 AM UTC
Haha, thats actually kind of funny. Paint by numbers.
Whisky-Delta
Joined: August 10, 2004
KitMaker: 152 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 06:09 AM UTC
Thx i will try that again.
To your knoledge can you purchase camoflauge netting that you can place on a 1:35 scale modern tank?...i am not talking about a camo-tent which sits over the top of the tank and barely touches it, but a camo net which is draped over the gun barrel, turret and top part of the hull?...if it is purchaseable, what sort of price and how is it applied to a model?
EDIT: Also i have completed my Tamiya Desertised Challenger 2, but mine is different in the sense it is done in the british 2 tone camo, blackand green rather than desert sand. The problem is no Kosovo Challenger 2's have the canvas skirting below the armoured skirting and basically i want to get it removed from my fully finished model as now when i look at it, i believe the model would look a lot better with them removed. How do i remove them without damaging the rest of the model, i.e braking the skirts or damaging the wheels
thx again
To your knoledge can you purchase camoflauge netting that you can place on a 1:35 scale modern tank?...i am not talking about a camo-tent which sits over the top of the tank and barely touches it, but a camo net which is draped over the gun barrel, turret and top part of the hull?...if it is purchaseable, what sort of price and how is it applied to a model? EDIT: Also i have completed my Tamiya Desertised Challenger 2, but mine is different in the sense it is done in the british 2 tone camo, blackand green rather than desert sand. The problem is no Kosovo Challenger 2's have the canvas skirting below the armoured skirting and basically i want to get it removed from my fully finished model as now when i look at it, i believe the model would look a lot better with them removed. How do i remove them without damaging the rest of the model, i.e braking the skirts or damaging the wheelsthx again
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