(hope I explained this ok)
BTW whats this found it whilst browsing
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m113 question
mikeli125
Joined: December 24, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 03:48 PM UTC
Ok building the italeri m113 and looking at the back mudguards they look a bit poo no I have a spare set of Tamiya ones but the left hand one on the Tamiya kit has a straight cut out peice and the Italeri one is more of a rounded groove/cutout So would it be ok to use the Tamiya one for a Vietnam version?
(hope I explained this ok)
BTW whats this found it whilst browsing
(hope I explained this ok)
BTW whats this found it whilst browsing
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 04:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Ok building the italeri m113 and looking at the back mudguards they look a bit poo no I have a spare set of Tamiya ones but the left hand one on the Tamiya kit has a straight cut out peice and the Italeri one is more of a rounded groove/cutout So would it be ok to use the Tamiya one for a Vietnam version?
Tamiya part is actually wrong for any version. As far as I know M113 and M113A1 had this "groove" in the same shape, as in the photo below, so Italeri part is probably closer to the real thing. I think it was eliminated from M113A2, which has two "smooth" mudguards.
As far as I remember Verlinden offered a resin conversion to make a model of this experimental variant. A few of them were used for tests in Vietnam, but it never entered production.
Pawel
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 08:39 PM UTC
Peering into the Hunnicutt book, the drain channel on the left hand started as a squared design and then progressed to the rounded version. Not sure exactly when this change took place.
Since the channel is for the fuel tank drain plug then it would have disappeared when the A2 got the removable tank. The drain plug and channel would still be evident on mortar carriers since they have the welded in tank.
The conversion is an XM734 prototype. Some of which had the Model 74 turret and 2 even had bar armor.
Paul
Since the channel is for the fuel tank drain plug then it would have disappeared when the A2 got the removable tank. The drain plug and channel would still be evident on mortar carriers since they have the welded in tank.
The conversion is an XM734 prototype. Some of which had the Model 74 turret and 2 even had bar armor.
Paul
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:15 PM UTC
I buillt that old Verlinden conversion a long time ago, in the late 80s perhaps. Interesting conversion.
The old M901 ITV in my motor pool has the curved channel. I don't know off hand what type the other M113A2 has.
The old M901 ITV in my motor pool has the curved channel. I don't know off hand what type the other M113A2 has.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 09:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Peering into the Hunnicutt book, the drain channel on the left hand started as a squared design and then progressed to the rounded version. Not sure exactly when this change took place.
Ah, yesss... I don't have my Hunnicutt with me now (I know that each self-respecting armor aficionado should carry those book with him everywhere, but they are just sooo heavy...
), but indeed some pics collected on my computer show the squared shaped drain channel on early M113s.Quoted Text
Since the channel is for the fuel tank drain plug then it would have disappeared when the A2 got the removable tank. The drain plug and channel would still be evident on mortar carriers since they have the welded in tank.
Actually late production A1 also had a removable tank. Somehow I didn't realize that the change also meant disappearence of this drain channel but it makes sense. I found a couple of pics of M113A1s in Vietnam (see below), which don't have the drain channel - probably these were late ones with removable tank.
EDIT: Ehmmm... I'm confused now. Check the picture below. It shows Aussie M113A1 FSV with removable tank and with drain channel in the mudguard... So it looks like some removable tanks in M113A1 also had drains...
EDIT 2: OK, I've found an answer. First M113A1s to which removable fuel tank was attached, still had the mudguard with drain channel, but there was no drain plug there at all, so the channel was useless. Check the photo of Bundeswehr M113A1 below - note that there is no drain plug at the top of the channel - just a smooth armor. And the tank is of removable type.
Pawel
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:17 PM UTC
I'm guessing that a retrofit on the cheap wouldn't spring for a new mudguard and paint but we'll probably never know unless we find someone who worked at a refit depot.
As for the M113A1 FSV, there are possible clues as to why the chanelled mudguard was kept:
JoMO May '98 M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle by Paul Handel "A total of fourteen vehicles were converted from new M113A1 vehicles of 1969 vintage, by 4 Base Workshop RAEME at Bandiana during 1970 and 1971....(The number of vehicles produced was limited by the quantity of Saladin armored cars in the Australian inventory.)"
Military Briefs Australian Fire Support Vehicles by John Myszka "The FSVs were all built on new M113A1 hulls purchased specifically for the purpose of conversion to FSVs."
Edit: Vodnik's additional info clears it up but the FSVs all seem to have the jerry can holder over that spot so we can't tell if the plug hole has been filled in but I would assume it has.
Here's a good shot of the drain plug on a late M106A2 on display at the Texas Military Forces Museum, Camp Mabry, Austin, TX:
Paul
As for the M113A1 FSV, there are possible clues as to why the chanelled mudguard was kept:
JoMO May '98 M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle by Paul Handel "A total of fourteen vehicles were converted from new M113A1 vehicles of 1969 vintage, by 4 Base Workshop RAEME at Bandiana during 1970 and 1971....(The number of vehicles produced was limited by the quantity of Saladin armored cars in the Australian inventory.)"
Military Briefs Australian Fire Support Vehicles by John Myszka "The FSVs were all built on new M113A1 hulls purchased specifically for the purpose of conversion to FSVs."
Edit: Vodnik's additional info clears it up but the FSVs all seem to have the jerry can holder over that spot so we can't tell if the plug hole has been filled in but I would assume it has.
Here's a good shot of the drain plug on a late M106A2 on display at the Texas Military Forces Museum, Camp Mabry, Austin, TX:
Paul
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
JoMO May '98 M113A1 Fire Support Vehicle by Paul Handel "A total of fourteen vehicles were converted from new M113A1 vehicles of 1969 vintage,
Paul,
I believe that by 1969 new M113A1 hulls already lacked the drain hole, as removable tanks were installed in them. Probably FMC had some stock of old style mudguards and installed them until the stock run out, at which point they started to attach newer flat mugduards. So it is safe to assume that FSVs look similar to the German M113A1 on the pic above and had the hole filled (or rather never had it made).
Pawel
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 05:00 AM UTC
Found this picture in the pile. A M163 from the 1st Cav museum at Ft. Hood, TX and it's got the same drain channel on the left rear bumper.
Paul
Paul
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 05:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Found this picture in the pile. A M163 from the 1st Cav museum at Ft. Hood, TX and it's got the same drain channel on the left rear bumper.
Nice picture!
All versions of M163 retained original fuel tank welded to the hull, so they also retained the drain and drain channel.
Pawel
wolfpack6
Joined: August 07, 2004
KitMaker: 179 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 05:44 AM UTC
Maybe I can help!
The 113A had Gas engine way back in time, I believe it was a Chevy 427, but they had the square chute.
I can remember back as far as 84 welding a square chute to an A2 while I was with the 23rd Eng Bn in Germany, so the stocks went everywhere and were used up during the early 80's
Hope this helped
The 113A had Gas engine way back in time, I believe it was a Chevy 427, but they had the square chute.
I can remember back as far as 84 welding a square chute to an A2 while I was with the 23rd Eng Bn in Germany, so the stocks went everywhere and were used up during the early 80's
Hope this helped
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 07:57 AM UTC
The finders could be replace by your local unit weldier. 
You just got what ever they sent you by the time the A1 were around.
You just got what ever they sent you by the time the A1 were around.
kglack43
Joined: September 18, 2003
KitMaker: 842 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:58 AM UTC
After see the title to this thread....and reading a couple posts and responses, I would have thought the website "The Bucket Shop" would have answered this question, but, from looking the site over, I see that there is absolutly no info about this question on it (hardly even a rear view angle to look at). And that is why I did'nt even make a hotlink to the site....and....yet another reason I love this site and appreciate the talented members that are always ready with an answer or at least a push in the right direction.
Thanks for the info from all.Now i know, when I get ready to assemble my couple of M113 kits, they will be all the better detailed because of it.
Glack
Thanks for the info from all.Now i know, when I get ready to assemble my couple of M113 kits, they will be all the better detailed because of it.
Glack
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:59 PM UTC
Having read the thread all I could do is laugh...sadly. You guys absolutely beat that subject to death, then stomped on it for an hour afterward. Talk about trivial pursuits..you guys reminded me of the group on the model ship website flogging such a trivial subject. The answer was given in the fist few posts but then everyone had to chip in with some little bit and piece of a IMHO minor item Not trying to be mean and vicious here just blows me away when you guys start trying to get impressive with your knowledge of such trivial items
Ranger74
Joined: April 04, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:18 AM UTC
None of the 10 M113A1s in my scout platoon in 1977-78 had the grooved left fender. Both rear fenders were identical. The groove in the fender was initially for the M113s with gasoline engines and they had the fuel drain thru the rear armor. M113A1s with diesel engine and new fuel tank had their fuel drain inside the crew compartment - a little petcock . I clearly remiember the petcock as I had one that starting leaking during the IG inspection.
The mortar platoon had M106 "gassers" for their gun tracks and had the curved drain channels.
If your parts clerk was not specific on parts numbers when ordering a new fender, you could get the wrong one for the specific vehicle.
The mortar platoon had M106 "gassers" for their gun tracks and had the curved drain channels.
If your parts clerk was not specific on parts numbers when ordering a new fender, you could get the wrong one for the specific vehicle.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The groove in the fender was initially for the M113s with gasoline engines and they had the fuel drain thru the rear armor. M113A1s with diesel engine and new fuel tank had their fuel drain inside the crew compartment - a little petcock .
Early M113A1 with diesel engine also had integral tanks with drain through the armor. It was changed later in production (but still during Vietnam war - I don't remember the year now).
Quoted Text
The mortar platoon had M106 "gassers" for their gun tracks and had the curved drain channels.
That's right - all M106s have those drain channels, even diesel M106A1 and M106A2 ones, as they still had integral fuel tanks, not removable ones.
Pawel
kglack43
Joined: September 18, 2003
KitMaker: 842 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:49 AM UTC
OK...Since everyone else is showing photos of the drain channels....here's one I dragged out of the archives. Dated Feb 1966.. Would this be an M113 or the closley related and from this angle, visually similar M106?
Thinking of a dio for this...
Kevin
Thinking of a dio for this...
Kevin
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Definitely an M113. The top cargo hatch on an M113 opens rearward and you can see it over hang the top of the hull rear. An M106 has a three piece circular hatch that opens sidways. The left side is one piece and the right side is a two piece that folds on top of itself.... Would this be an M113 or the closley related and from this angle, visually similar M106?
DRAGONSLAIN
Joined: February 22, 2004
KitMaker: 779 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
....here's one I dragged out of the archives
Thats a funny one :-) you dragged it out? haha.
Hey Vodnik thanks for the picture of the M113 FSV, that is kind of what I was looking for, thanks.
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