AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Matthew Toms
Camo Techniques
Tin_Can
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 08:59 AM UTC
In reference to camo paint schemes how do you guys go about applying them in regards to actual application of the paint and design? Do you use any kind of masking material to coverup area's of the basecoat and spray the next color over unmasked areas or do you freehand it? Back when I was a young'en doing planes I would cut masks from masking tape and then use a spray can to paint and then remove the mask. This worked good but sometimes left a pretty big ridge along the edge of the mask. I've heard some people use a material called parafilm to do essentially the same thing so does that work better? Thanks guys!
pipesmoker
Joined: January 31, 2002
KitMaker: 649 posts
Armorama: 379 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:56 AM UTC
Bryan,
Depends on what model you are doing.
For WW2 German, just about anything goes. Just page through "Panzer Colors", particularly PC #1(the red cover). I check my references to see what the unit did on the model I am painting. Or, sometimes I just use the kit instructions.
For modern armor, probably the kit instructions are best, or ask the guys here.
For masking I usually use a 4 x 6 index card. Cut various shapes, bend to fit the area I want to paint, attach the mask with a loop of masking tape and airbrush a 90 degrees to the mask. You get a soft, but defined color seperation. This is what I did on my jagdpanther. See Jim's picture from the show Saturday. This is also why I like building German WW2 armor.
If you want sharp definition, try the parafilm. But be careful you don't knock anything off.
The most difficult scheme is the four color European from the 80's (I think)
What the hey... try anything. Clay, Silly Putty, Play Doh, cotton balls... whatever seems like it will work. You can always repaint, right?
Depends on what model you are doing.
For WW2 German, just about anything goes. Just page through "Panzer Colors", particularly PC #1(the red cover). I check my references to see what the unit did on the model I am painting. Or, sometimes I just use the kit instructions.
For modern armor, probably the kit instructions are best, or ask the guys here.
For masking I usually use a 4 x 6 index card. Cut various shapes, bend to fit the area I want to paint, attach the mask with a loop of masking tape and airbrush a 90 degrees to the mask. You get a soft, but defined color seperation. This is what I did on my jagdpanther. See Jim's picture from the show Saturday. This is also why I like building German WW2 armor.
If you want sharp definition, try the parafilm. But be careful you don't knock anything off.
The most difficult scheme is the four color European from the 80's (I think)
What the hey... try anything. Clay, Silly Putty, Play Doh, cotton balls... whatever seems like it will work. You can always repaint, right?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:24 AM UTC
The Panzer Colors are good references, sometimes I just wish they'd give 3 view drawings though. I use just about anything that's available. Post-it notes, index cards, masking tape, etc.
pipesmoker
Joined: January 31, 2002
KitMaker: 649 posts
Armorama: 379 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 10:49 AM UTC
Darn, I forgot about the post-it notes. I know the airpale guys in the club like them. Low tack, and sharp edges.
Bryan,
The Picture of my jagdpanther is #42 on page 3 of Jim's photos of the contest.. Just to give you some idea of what I was talking about.
Bryan,
The Picture of my jagdpanther is #42 on page 3 of Jim's photos of the contest.. Just to give you some idea of what I was talking about.
Tin_Can
Joined: January 26, 2002
KitMaker: 1,560 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 07:23 PM UTC
Coo guys thanks. I was thinking along the same lines so maybe I wasn't too far out to lunch.
NeilUnreal
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 09:54 PM UTC
Here's something that gives scale-appropriate soft lines and can wrap around corners and curves. 1) Print the camo pattern on very thin paper, using a laser printer or something else which gives water-proof copies. 2) Cut the pattern out, making a mask. 3) Soak the mask in distilled water until it's really flimsy. 4) Lay the mask over the model and conform it to the surface. Make sure the underlying paint is well-cured or sealed so the wet paper won't damage it (test it on scrap first). 5) When the paper dries, you can use it as is for wider fades or tack it tighter for crisper lines. Spray the paint gently at a 90-degree angle to the surface.
-Neil
-Neil
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Friday, February 15, 2002 - 10:07 AM UTC
Bryan,
For the MERDEC scheme I applied to the M60A2 in the Gallery here, I used simple masks made from lengths of Scotch Tape. I cut the tape on glass with a sharp X-Acto knife, and then applied it to the model - painting one color at a time. Between colors, I sealed the finish with a mist coat of Gloss to prevent the tape from pulling up the paint underneath. It took me 8 hours to paint that scheme on the M60A2, but it was worth it.
Gunnie
For the MERDEC scheme I applied to the M60A2 in the Gallery here, I used simple masks made from lengths of Scotch Tape. I cut the tape on glass with a sharp X-Acto knife, and then applied it to the model - painting one color at a time. Between colors, I sealed the finish with a mist coat of Gloss to prevent the tape from pulling up the paint underneath. It took me 8 hours to paint that scheme on the M60A2, but it was worth it.
Gunnie
KMM
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 01:18 PM UTC
Unfortunately, some of us live in small apartments with no room to airbrush 
That leaves the good-old manual brushing technique. For less defined camo patterns - especially on german tanks - I've found that dab painting with a barrel brush works really well - this also works great as a winter whitewash. For sharper patterns, a steady hand and a good brush are your best friends. If done correctly, brush painting can turn out some great results on armor.
That leaves the good-old manual brushing technique. For less defined camo patterns - especially on german tanks - I've found that dab painting with a barrel brush works really well - this also works great as a winter whitewash. For sharper patterns, a steady hand and a good brush are your best friends. If done correctly, brush painting can turn out some great results on armor.
Bruce_J
KitMaker: 6 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 03:43 PM UTC
For US Armour & Vehicles...
The MERDEC/CARC (modern Tri-color) I've found that very careful airbrushing with the finest point works well at 1/35 scale. For patterns, I refer to the US Army manuals since the kit instructions are usually wrong. The manual number is: TB 43-0209. These are originally applied by a robot in the factory so they are usually pretty exact. Paint the outlines first and then fill them in, you;ll get a similar look as the real thing with the outlines being slightly heavier paint.
For the older 4 color patterns ('70s - 80's) anything goes since these were applied at the unit level and were orignally applied with spray, brushes and even rollers. I usually airbrush the entire model Forest Green as it came from the factory and then add the second main color (e.g. Field Drab FS30118, Light Green, Sand FS30277, Earth Yellow FS 30279, or Dark Green - depending on location), and then brush paint the accent colors (black and the usually Sand FS30277 or Earth Yellow FS30279). You can get the patterns from US Army manual TB 43-0209.
Any library can usually request a copy of these manuals from the Government Printing Office. Portrayal Press in Andover NJ also sells copies of them.
The MERDEC/CARC (modern Tri-color) I've found that very careful airbrushing with the finest point works well at 1/35 scale. For patterns, I refer to the US Army manuals since the kit instructions are usually wrong. The manual number is: TB 43-0209. These are originally applied by a robot in the factory so they are usually pretty exact. Paint the outlines first and then fill them in, you;ll get a similar look as the real thing with the outlines being slightly heavier paint.
For the older 4 color patterns ('70s - 80's) anything goes since these were applied at the unit level and were orignally applied with spray, brushes and even rollers. I usually airbrush the entire model Forest Green as it came from the factory and then add the second main color (e.g. Field Drab FS30118, Light Green, Sand FS30277, Earth Yellow FS 30279, or Dark Green - depending on location), and then brush paint the accent colors (black and the usually Sand FS30277 or Earth Yellow FS30279). You can get the patterns from US Army manual TB 43-0209.
Any library can usually request a copy of these manuals from the Government Printing Office. Portrayal Press in Andover NJ also sells copies of them.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 09:03 PM UTC
Back when we had M60A3s and before people told us CARC paint was a carcinogen, we would set up an assembly line of vehicle painters. One group would paint all vehicles in the company green, then the motor sergeant and platoon sergeants would chalk out the camo pattern. Then all tanks would get the brown painted in, then the paint crew would paint the black last. By this time sand paint was only used to paint rectangles where the bumper numbers would go. Black spary paint from cans (nothing special, whatever was on the shelf at the PX) was used to paint the bumper numbers and US star. No two tanks looked alike. Quality of the paint scheme varied based on who was spraying the paint on that particular tank at that particular time. Someone who happened to be on paint detail and happened to have his tank being done, may have had a little better job done. But again, it would be based on the soldier with the spray gun.
Additionally, when we popped open paint cans, the exact tone of the green or brown varied substantially. Plus if we found out we did not have enough brown to go around, green or sand or even OD green paint was poured in to make the paint last long enough for the entire unit's tanks to get done. Made for some interesting shades of brown. For some reason, there was never enough brown paint.
Additionally, when we popped open paint cans, the exact tone of the green or brown varied substantially. Plus if we found out we did not have enough brown to go around, green or sand or even OD green paint was poured in to make the paint last long enough for the entire unit's tanks to get done. Made for some interesting shades of brown. For some reason, there was never enough brown paint.
ArmouredSprue
Joined: January 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,958 posts
Armorama: 1,003 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 09:31 PM UTC
Well!
Yhatīs remember me why all my models, until now, are in plenty solid one colour scheme, I never tried to paint a camo scheme yet.
I got an ambulance Hummer waiting to be done as used in the Desert Storm pattern (I know they were used both in sand colour and the camo scheme, guess what I gonna make?).
I think the chance to get a mess work is far less than when we move to camo patterns.....
I know I have to try it sometimes, I just donīt feel confident right now. A good start probably will be a german WW II tank with a free hand camo...
Cheers!
Yhatīs remember me why all my models, until now, are in plenty solid one colour scheme, I never tried to paint a camo scheme yet.
I got an ambulance Hummer waiting to be done as used in the Desert Storm pattern (I know they were used both in sand colour and the camo scheme, guess what I gonna make?).
I think the chance to get a mess work is far less than when we move to camo patterns.....
I know I have to try it sometimes, I just donīt feel confident right now. A good start probably will be a german WW II tank with a free hand camo...
Cheers!
GeneralFailure
Joined: February 15, 2002
KitMaker: 2,289 posts
Armorama: 1,231 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:18 AM UTC
Well, here's a puzzle . I thought the pics of the M577 in my article were made in 1992, but now I found out that they were made in December, 1989. Still, their paint scheme is that of the 1992 version of the TB43_0209.
If this new scheme was not introduced in 1992 but earlier, when was it ? What rule decided which vehicle had to be in which scheme ? My pictures show vehicles from the same units in both the old and new color scheme. How was this change-over organized ? Are there any rules ? For what period can both paint schemes be mixed in the same diorama ?
If this new scheme was not introduced in 1992 but earlier, when was it ? What rule decided which vehicle had to be in which scheme ? My pictures show vehicles from the same units in both the old and new color scheme. How was this change-over organized ? Are there any rules ? For what period can both paint schemes be mixed in the same diorama ?
RufusLeeking
Joined: January 18, 2002
KitMaker: 330 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 05:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Back when we had M60A3s and before people told us CARC paint was a carcinogen, we would set up an assembly line of vehicle painters. One group would paint all vehicles in the company green, then the motor sergeant and platoon sergeants would chalk out the camo pattern. Then all tanks would get the brown painted in, then the paint crew would paint the black last. By this time sand paint was only used to paint rectangles where the bumper numbers would go. Black spary paint from cans (nothing special, whatever was on the shelf at the PX) was used to paint the bumper numbers and US star. No two tanks looked alike. Quality of the paint scheme varied based on who was spraying the paint on that particular tank at that particular time. Someone who happened to be on paint detail and happened to have his tank being done, may have had a little better job done. But again, it would be based on the soldier with the spray gun.
Additionally, when we popped open paint cans, the exact tone of the green or brown varied substantially. Plus if we found out we did not have enough brown to go around, green or sand or even OD green paint was poured in to make the paint last long enough for the entire unit's tanks to get done. Made for some interesting shades of brown. For some reason, there was never enough brown paint.
Rob, sometimes I think those of us who build models want to capture every detail of a tank or vehicle. And want to get the camo pattern perfect, but we forget the humans who painted the real things or where they were when they painted them. Your post was very informative, it wasn't like an automotive assembly line with robot arms doing the painting.
Ron C.
Ashtabula, Oh
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The NATO 3 color scheme was in use prior to 1987. During the late 80s and into the 90s it was not uncommon to see some vehicles painted in factory fresh 3-color scheme and others in the old brown, green and black (tan had been deleted by then). The old style brown was lighter and more red than the dark brown used in the NATO scheme. Take a look at the picture of the M60A3 on the Tamiya box top, it is a good picture of the old scheme.Well, here's a puzzle . I thought the pics of the M577 in my article were made in 1992, but now I found out that they were made in December, 1989. Still, their paint scheme is that of the 1992 version of the TB43_0209.
If this new scheme was not introduced in 1992 but earlier, when was it ? What rule decided which vehicle had to be in which scheme ? My pictures show vehicles from the same units in both the old and new color scheme. How was this change-over organized ? Are there any rules ? For what period can both paint schemes be mixed in the same diorama ?
Bruce_J
KitMaker: 6 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 10:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
... sometimes I think those of us who build models want to capture every detail of a tank or vehicle. And want to get the camo pattern perfect, but we forget the humans who painted the real things or where they were when they painted them. Your post was very informative, it wasn't like an automotive assembly line with robot arms doing the painting.
Ron C.
Actually the current factory vehicles are painted by robot arms at the factory!
[q]What rule decided which vehicle had to be in which scheme ? My pictures show vehicles from the same units in both the old and new color scheme. How was this change-over organized ? Are there any rules ? For what period can both paint schemes be mixed in the same diorama ? [/q]
By October 1990, all new vehicles coming from the factory were painted at the factory in the three color scheme. Prior to that, many of the factories had converted over, but not all. There was a time when it was very common to see all green vehicles during the transition period, kinda like they were wiating for someone to make up their mind.
The "rule" was/is that all vehicles will remain painted as is until or unless a major repaint is required. That is, the older four color unit-painted schemes did not necessarily get repainted unless there was a practical need for new paint. Some units painted them anyway - see the above story abou thte M60's being painted in the three color. This was done especially for the European vehicles as it was suposed to make them harder to distinguish between the other NATO vehicles by those nasty Ruskies.
Even today, you'll find older vehicles still in service with their four color schemes - especially older trucks, support vehicles and trailers.
Obviously, you woudln't see a Hummer, or M1A2 Abrams in a four color scheme, but you'll find countless 2.5 ton 6X6 and older 5 ton trucks that are.
GeneralFailure
Joined: February 15, 2002
KitMaker: 2,289 posts
Armorama: 1,231 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 10:22 PM UTC
Thanks, Rob and Bruce. That was very enlightening.
This makes me realise that some vehicle types could NEVER be in the old 4 color scheme. !!! That would be an interesting list for newbies...
I admit my interest got stuck somewhere in the late 80's and early 90's : I never saw "real" modern US military eqt. since the Gulf war. For the Gulf, I saw them being moved from European depots to ports for repainting and shipping to the Middle East. The M911 HET I put in the gallery is the ONLY real Oshkosh truck I ever saw
, not to mention other modern armor like the M3, the M113A3, or ANY marines vehicle...) GeneralFailure
Joined: February 15, 2002
KitMaker: 2,289 posts
Armorama: 1,231 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 10:27 PM UTC
BTW, the repainting rule is much the same as in civil aviation (my job area). When airlines change into new colors/logo's, they often repaint one or two aircraft for image purposes, then only repaint the other aircraft in their fleet when these are scheduled for maintenance. or when they need body repairwork. The result : sometimes you can see three generations of "company colors" with the same airline at the same time.
HellaYella
Joined: August 27, 2003
KitMaker: 109 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 12:34 AM UTC
I am hand painting in acrylics...how do I make it look professional enough for D-day axis camoflage..any tips? 
AJLaFleche
Joined: May 05, 2002
KitMaker: 8,074 posts
Armorama: 3,293 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 02:59 AM UTC
Hella, the good news for you is that the Germans used any means at hand to apply their cammo colors, so a hard edge wold not be inappropriate.
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