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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Elefant Question
RAF-Mad
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 03:59 AM UTC
I have a quick question about the Elefant tank destroyer, i know it was used at kursk with failure but where else was this unit in operation italy, france, germany (at the end of the war)?

Thx
husky1943
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:08 AM UTC
Ciao RAF-Mad,
As far as I know, they were used in Russia and Italy alone. If I understand correctly, they were sent from Russia to Italy because they were more suited to defense. They were used extensively on the mainland, but never in Sicily. Hope it helps.
Ciao for now
Rob
Stormbringer
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:23 AM UTC
The Elefant as such was never used at Kursk,it's predecessor the Ferdinand was. after Kursk those that were still runners were rebuilt as the Elefant with a bow machine gun,new commanders cupola and zimmerit.after rebuilding they were used in Italy mainly as static gun emplacements due to their mechanical unreliability.
I have heard a rumour that there were 2 elefants minus zimmerit used in the battle of Berlin but I've never been able to substantiate this.
Pete
DRAGONSLAIN
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

PzJgAbt 653(Tank-Hunting-Unit 653) which was after returning from Italy renamed in sPzJgKp 614 (heavy Tank-hunting-Company 614) was the last unit to use Elephants. Their last fight was on 22. April 1945 near Zossen southerly of Berlin...

This is a map of the area: (the green circle doesn`t have anything to do with the topic)


They were last used on the defence of Germany, and that was the end of it. there is no info if it was used in france.
thebear
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 05:16 AM UTC
During the battle at Kursk the Ferdinands were in two Abteilungs ..The 653rd and the 654th .After Kursk the remaining Ferdinands were all given over to the 653rd and they stayed on the Russian front for a few months before being returned to Germany for a refit ...During this time the Ferdinands were rebuilt as Elephants...After the refit the first company only was sent to Italy and the second and third were sent back to Russia.... The first company was later sent back to Russia to join up the the rest of the 653rd... Finally when there were no more Elephants they transfered over to Jagd-Tigers to finish off the war..As for the Elephants in Berlin I'm sure they were there I've seen pictures but I'm not sure if they were still a part of the 653rd or if they were not just picked up by defenders of Berlin who used anything they could get their hands on.. Oh I'm sure they would have had zimmerit at some time because all Ferdinands that were left were made into Elephants and they all received the paste at the same time as the refit.

Rick
RAF-Mad
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 06:30 AM UTC
intresting stuff the elefant seems to have been a complete failure i remember reading that they often broke down and were just abondoned.
Were the Jagd-Tigers what replaced the elefants as tank destroyers?

Iam thinking up a dio right now that will involve my
Pz. IV Ausf H And a colum of panzer griendiers behinde it moving through a rural area (dont know where this is why i was wondering where elefants were in operation) With possibly a elefant or another SP sitting in a partially destroyed barn getting supplies and minor repairs. This is just a rough idea i have.

I was wanting to do a dio in france so what type of heavy tanks would have been in operation there in around 1944 onward.


Thx for your replies
jpzr
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Posted: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

intresting stuff the elefant seems to have been a complete failure i remember reading that they often broke down and were just abondoned.
Were the Jagd-Tigers what replaced the elefants as tank destroyers?

Iam thinking up a dio right now that will involve my
Pz. IV Ausf H And a colum of panzer griendiers behinde it moving through a rural area (dont know where this is why i was wondering where elefants were in operation) With possibly a elefant or another SP sitting in a partially destroyed barn getting supplies and minor repairs. This is just a rough idea i have.

I was wanting to do a dio in france so what type of heavy tanks would have been in operation there in around 1944 onward.


Thx for your replies



I think it is a bit harsh to say the vehicle was a complete failure. When used properly, and adequately supported the Ferdinand/Elefant was a very effective anti-tank weapon. It's frontal armor and gun gave it a stand-off capability that was practically unmatched until the introduction of the Jagdtiger. Of course, the design was plagued by problems, so it certainly was not a complete success, but its very high kill ratio attests to its value if it made it to the battlefield. Like many of the German heavies, getting there was more than half the battle.
Also, one minor niggling correction, the name change was not related to the refit. According to Thomas Jentz, the name Elefant was not assumed until well after they were refitted.
thebear
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 02:50 AM UTC
Depends on what you mean by heavy tanks and what time period in France too... By 1944 most panzer divisions had both Panzer IV's and Panther tanks ...The tigers were now in separate Abteilungs...(except for a few exceptions..before you jump all over me) You could have a PanzerIV from the 12 SS division pass a Tiger from the 101SS Schwere Abteilung because the fought side by side against the British and Canadian troops. The 503 had early Kingtigers with the Porshe turrets again in the British sector. But no Jagd-tigers were in France and only very few Jagd-panthers. There were some Kingtigers later in the Battle of France with the regular Henshel turrets. Hope this helps...

Rick
p.s. Jentz is probably right about that but for the modeller I think the refit is a good place to make the switch in names to know which one we're talking about.
jpzr
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 02:58 AM UTC
Rick,
Yep, calling it an Elefant after the refit is certainly tidier. I was surprised to learn about the timing of the name change. I always assumed the change precisely coincided with the refit. Jentz sure likes to burst bubbles, eh?
Now if he will only finish up his long-awaited tome on German interiors we can find out where we've been wrong in that regard.
DRAGONSLAIN
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

the elefant seems to have been a complete failure i remember reading that they often broke down and were just abondoned.
Were the Jagd-Tigers what replaced the elefants as tank destroyers?



Those two were great weapons, but too improvised, the elefant/ferdinand wasn't even planned, they just used the remaining hulls of a bad prototype the problem in them was that they were just too heavy for their running gear and engines
thebear
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:08 AM UTC
I know what you mean Steve ..Jentz does have that effect doesn't he....lol I still stare at pictures of the Polish invasion ,sqinting to try and see the brown camo on ALL the armor that fought there... I just don't see it all the time ..(I have seen it on a few vehicles)

Rick
RAF-Mad
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:39 AM UTC
You Guys are the greatest So now i know some of the story of the elefant and its operations.


Quoted Text

By 1944 most panzer divisions had both Panzer IV's and Panther tanks ...The tigers were now in separate Abteilungs...(except for a few exceptions..before you jump all over me) You could have a PanzerIV from the 12 SS division pass a Tiger from the 101SS Schwere Abteilung because the fought side by side against the British and Canadian troops. The 503 had early Kingtigers with the Porshe turrets again in the British sector.



Thanks for the Info Bear this really helps me

I think i will have it passing a tiger as you suggest this has the advantage of i have found an engine set for the Tiger I Ausf. E and i was going to have them doing minor repairs on it. (this dio will be in braille scale)

Thx again all
thebear
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:48 AM UTC
Cool ...just remember it has to be either a mid ...late ..or final version of the tiger I..

Rick
P.S. If you need info about who had what just ask I'm sure I can help.
Stormbringer
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Posted: Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:56 AM UTC
I believe that the name "Elefant" was first used by the crews unofficially and then after a while adopted by officialdom.Of course I could be wrong here.
Pete
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