Okay, I have some questions on marking my Abrams from OIF. I will be doing another Abrams from the 3rd ID, but I am trying to understand the markings a little better. I even spoke with a TC who fought in Baghdad and he became confused when he tried to explain them.

I THINK the following is correct:
The large number on the side of the vehicle stood for the battalion and then the company. The 64th Armor was assigned number 5. So, a vehicle with a big 51 meant 64th Armor, alpha company.
The direction of the chevron around that large number I am unsure of. Some point up, some point to the side, and others point down. Could that be the company number? But that would then mean the second large number stands for something else.

I do know the chevrons on the turret stood for the company. Facing up meant alpha co, facing to the right meant bravo, and facing down meant delta. Then those chevrons had 1 - 3 dots inside them. Those stood for which platoon the tank was in.

The tank barrel would have 1 -4 colored bands around the fume extractor, The color was either red, white, or blue. Red was 1st platoon, white was 2nd, and blue was 3rd. There could be a black color too; that was HQ. The number of bands stood for which tank out of four it was in the platoon.

Can anyone confirm the above or clarify a few things. I am most unsure about the large number on the skirt and the chevron around it (some tanks show a second chevron on the skirt and I think that is a generic coalition marking).

You've just about got it. The direction of the chevron on the skirt denotes which platoon the tank belongs to. Up is 1st platoon, right is 2nd platoon (points rearward on the left side and forward on the right side), and down is third platoon. Company HQ tank section would not have a chevron.

Epi did an article on the variations of US Army markings in the features section.

This is true for USMC vehicles, Army doesn't use the dot system. As Sabot stated, direction denotes PLT, number is Bn and Co.

Thank you fellas. Gino, I am pretty sure the Army did use the dot system in OIF. Many photos in the Concord book show this, and the photos I have of the vet I mentioned have them too. These dots are inside the chevrons on the turret glacis panels and the corrugated CIP panels, not on the side skirts.


Thanks again guys. I love this site!

Maybe another Division used them. I was in 3ID and never saw any that way. Our vehicles didn't have them that way either. Here is a photo from 1AD vehicles that don't have them either.

If your referance shows it though, go for it.

Hello Gino,
The dot system was exclusively used by the Marine Tankers, two of the tank units that landed as part of the Marine Expeditionary Unit used a variation of the Number system inside the chevron identifying which MEU unit it belonged to.

Semper FI
Andy

Well, I guess I just will have to respectfully disagree. Maybe it's just a 64th Armor thing, and not necessarily a 3rd ID thing. I refer everybody to Concord's Special Ops book Vol 27 "Victory in Baghdad." Many 3rd ID vehicles are shown and pages 8, 9, and 11 clearly these are all 3rd ID vehicles. All seem to be from the 64th Armor, so again, maybe it was just them. The vet I mentioned in my first post was also from the 64th.

Finally, the Archer sheet on 64th Armor has the dots on them too. My first Abrams from OIF used their sheet and there is a dot inside the chevron depicting 1st platoon.



Andreas, I plan on making a Marine Abrams after I am done with the Army one I am just beginning. If you don't mind I would like to correspond with you down the road about the Marine details.

Thanks fellas!

Maybe you could scan the pictures from the book if you have a scanner that is? The nearest decent modelling store for me is Indianapolis (hour drive) and I don't have a car!!! Even then, I know they don't have it, so scanning and uploading the pics might be helpful to the rest of us. Another thing, unless you can clearly ID the tanks, the caption might be wrong. But I have to say if it is in your references it must be right.

Jeff

My god and i thought ww2 german armour was complicated? :-) amazing stuff guys i didnt know what all those marks meant! shows how behind i am!
thanks for opening this topic everyone ,i learned somethng new today ,besides the fact that a hagis wasnt a real animal! :-)

Hello Buric,
I don't mind if you contact me. Send me a message and I will get you my email address.

Semper FI
Andy

Sorry Jeff, I can't scan them. But if it is a book you would want, don't hesitate to order it off of VLS. They are VERY reputable. I am a member and so there is a fee ($50 for renewal I believe) but I get something like 20% or 25% of each order and as long as the order is over $20 the shipping is free. So, the membership for someone like me pays itself off after just one or two orders. Of course there are other mail order companies too that are great, like Squadron, and they regularly discount their items.

As far as the caption problem goes, I competely agree with you. Actually, in the book the auther does make a number of wrong assumptions (like the panels on the front of the Abrams' turrets - he says they are for detecting gas - they are for telling friend from foe just like the corrugated ones on the sides and back and show up differently on thermal sites). But I am 100% sure they are 3rd ID vehicles since the markings are very clear they are 64th Armor and that makes them 3rd ID. Plus, I have the 3rd ID vet's photos and they are the same. He was in 2nd platoon and so he has two dots inside his turret chevrons.

Andreas: Thanks for your response. It will be awhile before I get around to doing that project, so I won't bother you now or soon. But I figured I would ask while we were on the same thread. My plan is to do a diorama when the Marines were going through the slums of Baghdad. I want to use the very good new Tamiya M1 and the VLS Middle East Tenement building. I also have those Verlinden Iraqi citizen figures.

That's why I love this site. Everybody is so helpful and nice. I wish I had something to offer instead of just asking questions, but oh well.

Bob

Great stuff, guys. I had wondered about this myself. Is there any good source to find out which battalion and company the numbers represent?

Armorguy:

Well, the Battalion number is always the first number and the company number is always the second one. The second number then is not that hard. 1 means the 1st co, 2 means 2nd, 3 means 3rd.

It's the first number that is problematic. Even the vet I speak with did not know anything but his own batallion, which was assigned the number 5. I have seen photos where that big two digit number starts with 9, or 8. I don't know what battalion they are/were.

But, as far as a source, I think this site is the best source available. There are so many knowledgable people that regularly check in, I think you could get just about any marking question answered.

Bob