What is the difference in the Dragon Panther II and the Panther F kits? I see the same turret and the same steel road wheels. Wasn't the Panther II a project and only a couple of the new turrret design completed? How many of the F were produced or were they just planned?

If the F was produced what were the differences between the G and the F Panthers?

I'm at work (shhhh.... )
Yes the same (wrong) schmalturm is in both kits.
There is great debate on the schmallturm design and implementation, several aftermarket comapnies make better turrets, but there is still some argument about 75mm vs 88.

The best book for the differences and most Panther questions is Panther The Quest for Combat supremacy, but Jentz

Jentz also does a series of books, Panzertracts, that has Panther D,A,G volumes out and the F/II volume is coming eventually.

my short verasion recollections was the II was a paper design, most of the improvements went into the G.
There were F's on the assembly line at the end of the war, annecdotes about completed tanks, but no proof or images.
The engine deck on the F was that of the Tiger II and there were other hull plate thickness differerces as well.

Another place to look is the wWII Axis discussion group over on Missing Links, search Panther II and/or Panther F.
Just be sure to search first, and use your whole name when posting. Despite what the N54 guidelines say, name is NOT optional over there and they get pretty snitty about it.

drop me a pm if you have more Q's and I'll look for sure at home tonight.

Mike

The colonel did a great job of answering, but I can add a couple of things. As you know I'm sure, the Panther II pre-dated the Panther F by at least a year or two. One of the major intents behind its design was the simplification of manufacturing by using components common to multiple vehicles. In this case, the vehicle was to share many sub-assemblies with the Tiger II. In terms of fruition, the project did result in the creation of a couple of hulls, but no turrets (although there is some controversy about the turret bit). The one remaining hull sits about 40 miles south of me at the Patton Museum. It is adorned with a late G turret, with sourcing somewhat confused. Some argue the turret was mounted by the Germans near the end of the war. Others (with whom I tend to agree) say the Brits mounted the turret post war. In terms of differences with other Panthers, the biggest difference was 100mm glacis armor (shared with the Tiger II), a re-designed rear deck, and different running gear (steel wheels, same drive sprocket/idler as the Tiger II I think). I believe side and top armor differed from other panthers as well, but I'm not sure about that. In fact, I can't recall if the redesign of the side hull (making it one continuous angle and eliminating the armor 'tab' at the rear as on the D and A) came from the work on the Panther II or on the Jagdpanther. Can't remember.
Now, what about the Panther F? As with the Panther II, there remain quite a few unanswered questions (Jentz to the rescue?). Again, there is no small controversy about the intended turret. Originally, it was thought that it would mount the same turret intended for the Panther II. Now, consensus seems to be that it was a different turret (even the name 'schmalturm' has attendant questions). As the colonel noted, there even remain questions as to what gun was to be mounted. In terms of the hulls, these were actually coming off the assembly lines at the end of the war. A famous photo in Jentz's seminal book on the Panther (A Quest for Combat Supremacy) clearly shows some F hulls on the jigs. As I understand it, the primary difference in the hulls was redesigned and thicker top armor. I'm not sure what else was different (Jentz's book is at home and I'm at work). What were they going to put on the hulls? That much, I don't have a clue. I've always been under the impression that the small turret, or narrow turret, or whatever they were going to call it was only partially completed (IIRC, the prototype ended up on a British firing range after the war), but I've lots of room to be wrong there. My best guess was that on an interim basis they would have mounted G turrets on the F hulls until turret production caught up.
In sum, in terms of the differences between the Panther II and the Panther F, it may help to frame it as follows: The Panther II was a dedicated re-design of the vehicle with one of the purposes being commonality of components. Some of the design features found expression in the Panther G that followed. The Panther F, on the other hand, was more of a continuation of the Panther. The realized changes (hull/top plate modifications) were relatively minor. The major change would have been the eventual re-design of the turret, but this never came to fruition (ironically, this was intended but never realized for either vehicle). In terms of the kits, it almost a certainty that neither has an accurate turret. I'm not sure what the basis for their design was, but I'm fairly certain they have subsequently been shown to be faulty. Other than that, I can't really say because I have neither kit.
Disclaimer: I was writing off the cuff here, so I apologize if I have steered you wrong with any of the specifics.

Good stuff Steve,

Am I remembering something about lifting and sliding hatches on one or the other II or F .. not the A style lift and pivot, and not the G type flip open, but a different lift slightly straight upwards and slide straight outboard?


Now I have to go home and dig into my references...
(not that it is a bad thing.)

Mike

I believe you are correct. IIRC, the F had redesigned hatches. I know that one of the differences was the hull top-plate in that area, but I also think the hatches themselves were re-designed.