Looking for some advice here. I am tired of having my riles/MG's coming out looking like painted plastic. I've seen some great looking examples in the Photo Gallery, and I'm wondering how you all do it. I use MM GunMetal enamel, but it just doesn't seem to look very good. Do you need to use something else with it? Rob, you mentioned a technique using a graphite pencil, I think. How does that work, if I may ask? Anyone care to share their talent on making realistic weapons?
TIA
Mike
AFV Painting & Weathering
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Realistic rifles/MG's??
mj
Joined: March 16, 2002
KitMaker: 1,331 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 11:11 PM UTC
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 11:51 PM UTC
I paint the machine gun flat black and then highlight it with a #2 pencil. Works OK for .50 cals.
Folgore
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 12:30 AM UTC
It almost seems that some colours are better for different guns. For a British Enfield Rifle or Bren gun, gunmetal, drybrushed with aluminum (or using the graphite method) looks right. For a German MP40, though, I think a dark steel (or black with aluminum drybrushing) looks better. What do you think?
Nic
Nic
mj
Joined: March 16, 2002
KitMaker: 1,331 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 12:39 AM UTC
It sounds so simple, but looks so good.
Sorry to trouble you again, Rob, but do you seal (flat-coat) the MG before you highlight,...after? I would think after, but wouldn't the flatcoat deaden the effect?
Mike
Sorry to trouble you again, Rob, but do you seal (flat-coat) the MG before you highlight,...after? I would think after, but wouldn't the flatcoat deaden the effect?
Mike
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 05:16 AM UTC
I try to add the .50 cal last so as not to have to worry about the dullcoat. Basically using the pencil lead as a form of drybrushing.
mj
Joined: March 16, 2002
KitMaker: 1,331 posts
Armorama: 569 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 07:44 AM UTC
Thank you, Rob and Nic. I'll get to work on these suggestions. I like to add a figure or two, with armament, to my models, and set them all on a wooden base or plaque. The weaponry really can add to the realism of the scene. I'm really beginning to see that in modelling, as in life, the devil is in the details.
Thanks again for the help.
Mike
Thanks again for the help.
Mike
Sancho0409
Joined: July 25, 2002
KitMaker: 145 posts
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Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 12:23 PM UTC
When you use the pencil lead (which isn't lead anymore) do you like write directly on the gun, or do you use shavings and apply with a brush?
mj
Joined: March 16, 2002
KitMaker: 1,331 posts
Armorama: 569 posts
Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 01:21 AM UTC
Sancho, from what Rob mentioned in another thread, he gently rubs the pencil lead against the weapon to bring out the highlights.
Sorry, Rob, don't mean to speak for you, but saw the question and thought I would jump in.
Mike
Sorry, Rob, don't mean to speak for you, but saw the question and thought I would jump in.
Mike
kkeefe
Joined: May 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 04:44 AM UTC
Hi,
I used to use the graphite over black paint method, but lately I've found that using silver artist pencils (sharpened to a very fine point for the difficult to reach areas) and 'rubbed in' over the black paint works better for me for the gun metal parts IMMHO. I didn't care for having lead flying around and on me fingers. The silver art pencil tends to not be as bright as you might think.
I've also used these pencils in various shades of brown over brown paint for the wood grain to good effect. Just did a 1/32 scale British SMLE rifle over the weekend and (I thought) that it came out right nicely.
No problems with applying a acrylic flat coat afterwards either. Pencil more in if required.
Haven't yet tried the above with an all metal piece like the Ma-Duece, but with care, I would think that it would work out just fine.
Hence the bottom line in my signature, but you can find a few (rifle) examples on my web site.
Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature
I used to use the graphite over black paint method, but lately I've found that using silver artist pencils (sharpened to a very fine point for the difficult to reach areas) and 'rubbed in' over the black paint works better for me for the gun metal parts IMMHO. I didn't care for having lead flying around and on me fingers. The silver art pencil tends to not be as bright as you might think.
I've also used these pencils in various shades of brown over brown paint for the wood grain to good effect. Just did a 1/32 scale British SMLE rifle over the weekend and (I thought) that it came out right nicely.
No problems with applying a acrylic flat coat afterwards either. Pencil more in if required.
Haven't yet tried the above with an all metal piece like the Ma-Duece, but with care, I would think that it would work out just fine.
Hence the bottom line in my signature, but you can find a few (rifle) examples on my web site.
Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature
mj
Joined: March 16, 2002
KitMaker: 1,331 posts
Armorama: 569 posts
Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 05:15 AM UTC
Thank you, Kevin. I would never have thought of that. I have an artist supply store not that far from me, so I will definately give that a try.
Mike
Mike
Envar
Joined: March 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,088 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 19, 2002 - 02:33 PM UTC
I´ll have to throw in my recipe:
For metal parts I paint Citadel Acrylic Boltgun Metal for a base and give it a thin matt black enamel wash. Then I wash it with sepia ink and drybrush with aluminium.
For wood parts I´ve used light yellowish or reddish brown matt base, wash with sepia ink and drybrush with matt sand colour where the coating has been worn.
Maybe the best wood pattern I´ve tried was made using oils with a wide brush. I added stripes of Umber, Ochre and Sepia colours straight to the tip of the brush with another brush and when you paint with that, you actually get wood pattern with two-three strokes. Of course, more strokes will cause the colours mix and the pattern disppears.
I´m not the most patient person to do this on a regular basis, I don´t like to wait for days for the guns to dry, and neither do I like to make many parts mass-production way! I don´t want all guns in all my dios look the same!
It´s just so much quicker and less messy with the acrylics...
Toni
For metal parts I paint Citadel Acrylic Boltgun Metal for a base and give it a thin matt black enamel wash. Then I wash it with sepia ink and drybrush with aluminium.
For wood parts I´ve used light yellowish or reddish brown matt base, wash with sepia ink and drybrush with matt sand colour where the coating has been worn.
Maybe the best wood pattern I´ve tried was made using oils with a wide brush. I added stripes of Umber, Ochre and Sepia colours straight to the tip of the brush with another brush and when you paint with that, you actually get wood pattern with two-three strokes. Of course, more strokes will cause the colours mix and the pattern disppears.
I´m not the most patient person to do this on a regular basis, I don´t like to wait for days for the guns to dry, and neither do I like to make many parts mass-production way! I don´t want all guns in all my dios look the same!
It´s just so much quicker and less messy with the acrylics...
Toni
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 08:15 PM UTC
Their is a great article in FSM new one on painting barrels anybody want it. I will scan and send it PM me.
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
Armorama: 2,070 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 08:31 PM UTC
I get good mileage out of the flat black and graphite method, but add a twist or two..
especially on M60's from the Vietnam era I do some parts of the gun (reciever cover?) in lighter grey and then drybrush that section only with silver. My reference pictures show this area being lighter metal and pretty banged up. It also breaks up the monotony of a monochrome gun.
A Raw umber oil wash brings out some shadow without making things look too rust
A final dusting with ground graphite ( or the powdered stuff they sell in the squirt bottle at the hardware store).
no sealant and were in bid-ness..
Mike
especially on M60's from the Vietnam era I do some parts of the gun (reciever cover?) in lighter grey and then drybrush that section only with silver. My reference pictures show this area being lighter metal and pretty banged up. It also breaks up the monotony of a monochrome gun.
A Raw umber oil wash brings out some shadow without making things look too rust
A final dusting with ground graphite ( or the powdered stuff they sell in the squirt bottle at the hardware store).
no sealant and were in bid-ness..
Mike
CaptainJack
Joined: March 17, 2002
KitMaker: 793 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 08:44 PM UTC
MLD is corrrect, as is anyone else whose method works. I personally, Always undercoat with Vallejo 950 matt black, which gives a good working surface. I then use Humbrol polished steel for dry brushing and- after drying thoroughly, vary the tones by doing washes on the metal, especially if it is a large area. Following this I then rub the graphite onto a piece of sandpaper, then apply by drybrushing with a cotton swab/bud. This highlights the highlights. I alsooccaisionally pass over the highest points with a silver and grey mixture. Good metallic finishes are like alchemy, they don't come instantly, and they require a good number of variations. I keep a wide stock of powders, inks, foils, Rub n' buff, and other items which might help. Ultimatelty though there is no single product that can adequately perform all tasks You have to accept that this is one of those lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng learning curves, that requires a certain amount of flexibility, then again maybe i am crazy after all!
Jackaroo
Jackaroo
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 12:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
When you use the pencil lead (which isn't lead anymore) do you like write directly on the gun, or do you use shavings and apply with a brush?
mj & Sancho - what I do is use the Sanford Primsa-Color Metallic Pencils instead
of drybrushing the hilites.................just use the the side of the pencil's lead, and not
the point.
Here is my method I use after priming:
1) I'll paint the wood area's of the gun with Humbrol or Model Master "wood " enamel.
- After 24 hrs......I apply Winsor & Newton oils. - I use either Burnt Sienna.....or for an appearance of "red-brown wood " I mix the Burnt Sienna w/Cadium or Bright Red.
- After I apply this, I immediately take a clean dry brush andf wipe off any excess, while stroking the oil with the wood grain...........leaving a nice thin coat of oil.
- Again wait 24hrs, and I'll very lightly drybrush random area's of the oil painted wood, with
W&N Raw Umber..............stroking with the grain.
****************************************************************************************************
2) For the metal area's of the gun I use Humbrol or Model Master "Gun-Metal "
........Now you'll find the brands color varies slightly ......... Model Master is a more blacker shade...............as Humbrol is more of a "black - dark gray/steel " shade ( at least the paint's
I have in my rack are ).
- I apply my choice of gunmetal enamel.
- After 48hrs......I apply a single thin "pin -wash " of "flat black " to the gun-metal enamel area's only ( sometimes I don't even use a wash ).
- When the gun-metal enamel is thoroughly dry..........I then apply the highlite's with the Sanford Metallic pencil.
****************************************************************************************************
This is my preference for painting gun's and is just meant as a guide............as everyone has their own, and there all good. - Chose what best work's for you and your most comfortable with. You'll most likely add some of your own technique's.
You can find a thread on "gun-sling's/straps " here on ArmoramA also, that has some
great method's that the guy's here use themslves.
Also in my method, you can do step #2 before step #1 - Whatever you prefer.
JUST USE THE GUIDE LINES IN THIS THREAD.......AND I'M SURE YOU'LL FIND YOUR WAY TO GOOD RESULTS.
Sanford Primsa-Color Pencil's, are available at any local art supply store
All the best to you & good luck
- ralph
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
KitMaker: 796 posts
Armorama: 574 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 09:33 AM UTC
Guys, one thing to remember is what time period you doing. There are basically three finished for guns that we're interested in doing. The old standard rust bluing, parkerizing (different methods produce different colors), and good old paint.
Oh yeah, we have the JM Davis Gun Museum near here and the 45th infantry division next door to where I drill so I'll see if I can get some photos. Any request?
Oh yeah, we have the JM Davis Gun Museum near here and the 45th infantry division next door to where I drill so I'll see if I can get some photos. Any request?
Hollowpoint
Joined: January 24, 2002
KitMaker: 2,748 posts
Armorama: 1,797 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 10:18 AM UTC
Thanks, Steve (Salt6). Your mention of Parkerizing will likely baffle some folks, but warm the hearts of folks like me.
Parkerizing results in finishes that range from dark brown to almost OD green. It is found on most mid to late U.S. WWII small arms -- M1 carbine, M1 Garand rifle, .45 pistols, etc. They have a "flat" finish -- this is what Parkerizing was all about -- reduc ing the glint or glare off shiny metal. This is difficult to replicate in 1/35th scale, but it can be done. I can best suggest graphite on paint -- this is largely a matter of knowing what the real thing looks like, then being frugal in your attempt to replicate. If you want to be close, use the flat black and graphite technique. (M2 MGs tended to look more like the German weapons I describe below.)
German small arms, on the other hand, tend to be very deeply blued and don't show much wear. I have seen many (literally hundreds) of German 88mm Mausers "sporterized" for deer hunting that barely show a day of wear. They are all "used." I suggest painting Mausers and German MGs with gloss black and highlighting (very lightly around the "glint points") with graphite.
My two cents ... most "gun metal" colors are NOT. You might want to use them on tracks.
Wanna know what guns really look like? Get a few ...
Parkerizing results in finishes that range from dark brown to almost OD green. It is found on most mid to late U.S. WWII small arms -- M1 carbine, M1 Garand rifle, .45 pistols, etc. They have a "flat" finish -- this is what Parkerizing was all about -- reduc ing the glint or glare off shiny metal. This is difficult to replicate in 1/35th scale, but it can be done. I can best suggest graphite on paint -- this is largely a matter of knowing what the real thing looks like, then being frugal in your attempt to replicate. If you want to be close, use the flat black and graphite technique. (M2 MGs tended to look more like the German weapons I describe below.)
German small arms, on the other hand, tend to be very deeply blued and don't show much wear. I have seen many (literally hundreds) of German 88mm Mausers "sporterized" for deer hunting that barely show a day of wear. They are all "used." I suggest painting Mausers and German MGs with gloss black and highlighting (very lightly around the "glint points") with graphite.
My two cents ... most "gun metal" colors are NOT. You might want to use them on tracks.
Wanna know what guns really look like? Get a few ...
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 08:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi,
I used to use the graphite over black paint method, but lately I've found that using silver artist pencils (sharpened to a very fine point for the difficult to reach areas) and 'rubbed in' over the black paint works better for me for the gun metal parts IMMHO. I didn't care for having lead flying around and on me fingers. The silver art pencil tends to not be as bright as you might think.
I've also used these pencils in various shades of brown over brown paint for the wood grain to good effect. Just did a 1/32 scale British SMLE rifle over the weekend and (I thought) that it came out right nicely.
No problems with applying a acrylic flat coat afterwards either. Pencil more in if required.
Haven't yet tried the above with an all metal piece like the Ma-Duece, but with care, I would think that it would work out just fine.
Hence the bottom line in my signature, but you can find a few (rifle) examples on my web site.
Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature
I was going to ask you a question on your plants do you use the paper route and paint with acrylics?
kkeefe
Joined: May 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I was going to ask you a question on your plants do you use the paper route and paint with acrylics?
Jeff,
Yes, paper and wire for the larger jungle type plants painted with acrylcs mixed with beer.
Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature
ARENGCA
Joined: February 13, 2002
KitMaker: 382 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:27 AM UTC
There are a couple of things you might keep in mind for adding interest to weapons. Someone has already mentioned painting the feed tray cover on the M60 gray (or a lighter color). Later, someone mentioned that 'parkerized' finishes on many modern weapons range in color from brown to O.D. (centering over a basic deep gray). Add to those observations the fact that virtually every machine gun beyond the basic infantry rifle has a removable/changable barrel.
Knowing all of this, we can steal a technique from our misguided airplane-modelling site-mates, and paint different parts (panels) different colors!
So, consult your references, sort out what is barrel and what is receiver (the part that holds the barrel and the assorted bits that move back-and-forth very fast), then paint the barrel a slightly darker or lighter shade of grey/black. A light touch with the metallics, except for one or two bits around the feed tray (most weapons don't actually have much metallic color). If your references show a part that is a different color...well, you get the idea.
Knowing all of this, we can steal a technique from our misguided airplane-modelling site-mates, and paint different parts (panels) different colors!
So, consult your references, sort out what is barrel and what is receiver (the part that holds the barrel and the assorted bits that move back-and-forth very fast), then paint the barrel a slightly darker or lighter shade of grey/black. A light touch with the metallics, except for one or two bits around the feed tray (most weapons don't actually have much metallic color). If your references show a part that is a different color...well, you get the idea.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 10:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
most weapons don't actually have much metallic color).
If your references show a part that is a different color...well, you get the idea.
I think you guy's get the wrong impression of the
Sanford Metallic pencils effects on gun-metal.
The pencil doesn't give a bright shiny appearance's as you may think.
But a very dull finish, which perfectly replicate photo's
of reference that I use, as this one of an M1 Garand 30.06 ( minus the reflective camera light ).
- ralph
kkeefe
Joined: May 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 11:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The pencil doesn't give a bright shiny appearance's as you may think.
But a very dull finish, which perfectly replicate photo's
of reference that I use
I agree. I use the Prismacolor pencils and get good results with that brand as well.
Thanks,
Kevin Keefe
Mortars in Miniature
GeneralFailure
Joined: February 15, 2002
KitMaker: 2,289 posts
Armorama: 1,231 posts
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 03:58 AM UTC
DOn't forget : not the whole weapon is always made from metal : wood and plastics are involved, too. Some guns are painted, too. In the army, I remember using .50's that were completely painted in flat grey.
ARENGCA
Joined: February 13, 2002
KitMaker: 382 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 07:17 AM UTC
Nice job, Eagle. I didn't mean to imply that your method was "too metallic" (heck, I hadn't seen the results, so how could I criticize?). I just know that I have seen many articles and buildups that say "a careful drybrushing with silver to pick up the highlights...". Silver is not a normal color for undamaged weapons, and neither are most of the lighter metallics. My point was that except for one or two small parts, most (real) weapons don't show metallic colors. I suspect your method helps to provide highlights and shadowing, and it appears that the pencils don't come off as terribly metallic. If it looks right, then go with it!
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2002 - 11:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Nice job, Eagle. I didn't mean to imply that your method was "too metallic" (heck, I hadn't seen the results, so how could I criticize?). I just know that I have seen many articles and buildups that say "a careful drybrushing with silver to pick up the highlights...". Silver is not a normal color for undamaged weapons, and neither are most of the lighter metallics. My point was that except for one or two small parts, most (real) weapons don't show metallic colors. I suspect your method helps to provide highlights and shadowing, and it appears that the pencils don't come off as terribly metallic. If it looks right, then go with it!
Hi ARENGCA.....................I understand.
By the way ( LOL ) ........that photo is a real gun. It's one of the many photo's
I use for reference when I paint my W.W.II rifles. Unfortunately, my PC is so ancient
that I can't find a digital camera or scanner that will meet the requirement's that my
PC lack's. When I get my regular 35mm prints developed, I'm just going to have the
developer put them on disc for me so I can start up-loading photo's to my album's on MSN.
Until I get a real good PC system......I give up trying to find a DC & scanner, for my
ancient PC.
- ralph
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