Hosted by Darren Baker
M4A3E2 Jumbo
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 12:52 AM UTC
This has been bugging me for a while though there is little I can do about it now. A few years ago I emailed the curator at the Patton Museum in Fort Knox, KY regarding the M4A3E2 (note they have one stored in LST building and it can been seen by appointment or on the weekends when that facility is open---I never did, but that's the info). I was interested in seeing if the E2 was ever up gunned to 76mm. His answer was yes, and his research said that around 20% of the E2s were probably converted that way. Here's my question, many years ago I purchased a Jordi Rubio 76mm for my Tamiya E2 kit, but I think I bought the wrong one (I can't remember which one it was specifically, but the main identifying feature is that it does have a muzzel brake). So would that be incorrect? Could a E2 be up gunned to the 76mm with a muzzle brake? Its too late now in that I'd have to de-glue the barrel and buy a new one and ultimately it doesn't bother me that much, but I was wondering if after all it was maybe, could be, right?
m60a3
Joined: March 08, 2002
KitMaker: 778 posts
Armorama: 396 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 02:50 AM UTC
Mike,
I've never seen the E2 with a muzzle brake 76. Not saying that it never happened, just that I've not seen evidence of it. It seems to me that muzzle brakes on 76s did not appear to near the end of the war (March '45).
I'll check thru more refs and see if I can't prove myself wrong.
I've never seen the E2 with a muzzle brake 76. Not saying that it never happened, just that I've not seen evidence of it. It seems to me that muzzle brakes on 76s did not appear to near the end of the war (March '45).
I'll check thru more refs and see if I can't prove myself wrong.
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 03:23 AM UTC
Well crud...I was afraid of that.
ShermiesRule
Joined: December 11, 2003
KitMaker: 5,409 posts
Armorama: 3,777 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 05:07 AM UTC
Just a side note. IIRC all Jumbos were 75mm when they got the upgrade to Jumbo. Individual units in the field had their own ordinance people up-gun them to 76mm when appropriate. Remember the 76mm didn't fire all the same types of ammo as the 75mm and there were some advantages to keeping 75mm Jumbos.
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 05:53 AM UTC
I am assuming you spoke with Mr. Lemmons at the Patton Museum? I have had some e-mail exchanges with him over the years since I have a large collection of photo's fo the Camp Ripley Jumbo on the web.
From my research, I had understood that as many as 50% of the Jumbo's COULD have been re-gunned. To my understanding the regunning was not that difficult, whatever "difficult" may entail.
Also, unless I am wrong, a few photo's of the Jumbo show them with the 76mm with the little bulge at the tip of the barrel, which is supposed to house the screws to put the muzzle brake. I have NOT seen a picture of a Jumbo with a muzzle brake, nor have I heard of one using it.
Since the Jumbo was "classified" as a assualt tank, I am not sure they would have ever put a muzzle brake on it, considering it would have made it look more like a Panzer IV, and there wre far more good guys around to shoot at you than bad guys...
But there were more than enough undocumented Jumbo's out there for it to be POSSIBLE. At least it is notlike you are trying to add a 90mm barrel to it or something...
From my research, I had understood that as many as 50% of the Jumbo's COULD have been re-gunned. To my understanding the regunning was not that difficult, whatever "difficult" may entail.
Also, unless I am wrong, a few photo's of the Jumbo show them with the 76mm with the little bulge at the tip of the barrel, which is supposed to house the screws to put the muzzle brake. I have NOT seen a picture of a Jumbo with a muzzle brake, nor have I heard of one using it.
Since the Jumbo was "classified" as a assualt tank, I am not sure they would have ever put a muzzle brake on it, considering it would have made it look more like a Panzer IV, and there wre far more good guys around to shoot at you than bad guys...
But there were more than enough undocumented Jumbo's out there for it to be POSSIBLE. At least it is notlike you are trying to add a 90mm barrel to it or something...
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 09:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am assuming you spoke with Mr. Lemmons at the Patton Museum? I have had some e-mail exchanges with him over the years since I have a large collection of photo's fo the Camp Ripley Jumbo on the web.
From my research, I had understood that as many as 50% of the Jumbo's COULD have been re-gunned. To my understanding the regunning was not that difficult, whatever "difficult" may entail.
Also, unless I am wrong, a few photo's of the Jumbo show them with the 76mm with the little bulge at the tip of the barrel, which is supposed to house the screws to put the muzzle brake. I have NOT seen a picture of a Jumbo with a muzzle brake, nor have I heard of one using it.
Since the Jumbo was "classified" as a assualt tank, I am not sure they would have ever put a muzzle brake on it, considering it would have made it look more like a Panzer IV, and there wre far more good guys around to shoot at you than bad guys...
But there were more than enough undocumented Jumbo's out there for it to be POSSIBLE. At least it is notlike you are trying to add a 90mm barrel to it or something...
Hmmm, a 90 eh?....
I figured it would be possible, 76mm w/muzzle brake...now if only someone could document it actually happened...just give me one, that's all I need is one...and yes Jacques, I exchanged an email or two with Mr. Lemmons. He gave me a nice detailed reply after having looked through the histories of the units that used the E2s. It was very good of him to do that. What a cool job he has!
Speaking of M4A3E2s, why is it that there is so little documentation? I have two Sherman sources and between them there are maybe 4 pictures and 7 paragraphs written. What is the best Sherman resource book-wise?
generalzod
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 3,172 posts
Armorama: 2,495 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 09:22 AM UTC
Mike
Try Concord book's U.S.tank battles in France/Germany They have some photos of the Jumbo I've never seen I take it the muzzle brake is glued on? It might be easy to take off
Try Concord book's U.S.tank battles in France/Germany They have some photos of the Jumbo I've never seen I take it the muzzle brake is glued on? It might be easy to take off
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 09:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Mike
I take it the muzzle brake is glued on? It might be easy to take off
Ha, not anymore! The reason I didn't do this initially was because I didn't think it would be that easy...it was. Only thing now is that I'm left with not much depth to the barrel. Though I can rectify this I think with a drill press and a vice.
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 04:32 PM UTC
Hey Mike,
Could you send me a copy of Mr. Lemmons' assessment on the E2 and the units that used it? I have pretty much spoken to him on help in rebuilding the E2 the Patton museum has, and don't want to bother him for something you already have.
Could you send me a copy of Mr. Lemmons' assessment on the E2 and the units that used it? I have pretty much spoken to him on help in rebuilding the E2 the Patton museum has, and don't want to bother him for something you already have.
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 05:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hey Mike,
Could you send me a copy of Mr. Lemmons' assessment on the E2 and the units that used it? I have pretty much spoken to him on help in rebuilding the E2 the Patton museum has, and don't want to bother him for something you already have.
Honestly it was just a couple of paragraphs regarding the 76 mm's use in regards to the M4A3E2. I printed the email and saved it though deleted it off my hard drive years ago. If you're still interested I can transcribe it here.
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 11:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Mike
Try Concord book's U.S.tank battles in France/Germany They have some photos of the Jumbo I've never seen I take it the muzzle brake is glued on? It might be easy to take off
Where can I find that book? Not familiar with Concord Books.
toadman1
Vendor
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,141 posts
Armorama: 950 posts
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2004 - 05:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Speaking of M4A3E2s, why is it that there is so little documentation? I have two Sherman sources and between them there are maybe 4 pictures and 7 paragraphs written. What is the best Sherman resource book-wise?
There's probably so little about them because there were only a couple of hundred built. Steve Zaloga did a nice build up article on them for Military Modeling about a year or two ago. It had some nice pictures of 75mm armed ones. I'll see if I can dig it up when I get home. I also have a few pics of the fifth Jumbo produced. I'll try and post a few of them tonight.
Zaloga has a couple of New Vanguard books on the Sherman but I'm not sure how well he covers the Jumbo in them. Maybe someone out there can fill us in on his coverage of them. IMHO, Hunnicutt's Sherman book covers it rather well.
Easy_Co
Joined: September 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,933 posts
Armorama: 985 posts
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2004 - 07:34 AM UTC
The only sherman i can find with a muzle brake is the m4a3 (76mm) when it was introduced in the battle of the Bulge. H.T.H.
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2004 - 11:58 AM UTC
Just to follow this up, I shot an email to Mr. Lemons and this is his reponse in regards to my inquiry about the muzzle brake on a 76mm upgunned M4A3E2:
"The M4A3E2 was certainly upgunned to the 76mm gun in the field - Third Army Ordnance did several conversions. As issued, the 76mm gun barrel was threaded for the muzzle brake, but many of the early issue guns had a thin metal cap screwed over the threads to protect them and thus appears to be incapable of having a muzzle brake fitted. Having or not having a muzzle brake is your choice either is appropriate. The gun was capable of being fitted with the muzzle brake, once the protective cap was unscrewed."
Charles Lemons
Curator, Patton Museum
Of course now this is moot since as of Saturday I yanked the muzzle brake off. I took the barrel into work today and drilled some depth into the end. So I now have a brake-less 76mm for my M4A3E2. Anyone need a muzzle brake for theirs? Its only slightly damaged...(that damn white metal dings and squashes pretty easy).
"The M4A3E2 was certainly upgunned to the 76mm gun in the field - Third Army Ordnance did several conversions. As issued, the 76mm gun barrel was threaded for the muzzle brake, but many of the early issue guns had a thin metal cap screwed over the threads to protect them and thus appears to be incapable of having a muzzle brake fitted. Having or not having a muzzle brake is your choice either is appropriate. The gun was capable of being fitted with the muzzle brake, once the protective cap was unscrewed."
Charles Lemons
Curator, Patton Museum
Of course now this is moot since as of Saturday I yanked the muzzle brake off. I took the barrel into work today and drilled some depth into the end. So I now have a brake-less 76mm for my M4A3E2. Anyone need a muzzle brake for theirs? Its only slightly damaged...(that damn white metal dings and squashes pretty easy).
Easy_Co
Joined: September 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,933 posts
Armorama: 985 posts
Posted: Monday, November 29, 2004 - 11:04 PM UTC
I was in the local model shop this morning they had the Academy m4a2 in Russian service with a muzzle brake,
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 07:50 AM UTC
Just wondering if you could peruse the hardcopy you have and see if it has a list of the units that recieved the Jumbo...I know 3rd Army had them, but I am looking for specific Battalions/Divisions. If you do not have that specific information, you don't have to look for it, just thought if it was handy... 
toadman1
Vendor
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,141 posts
Armorama: 950 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 08:20 PM UTC
While not a 76mm armed Jumbo, here are a few pics of a Jumbo awaiting restoration.
IIRC, it is the 5th one off of the production line.
IIRC, it is the 5th one off of the production line.
woodstock74
Joined: December 28, 2002
KitMaker: 1,189 posts
Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 11:40 PM UTC
Got any more pictures??
straightedge
Joined: January 18, 2004
KitMaker: 1,352 posts
Armorama: 629 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 02:54 AM UTC
I don't know whether or not this will help, but you can look and see, I know they do have a picture of the Jumbo with the 75, then below it they got one with a 76, but it just says M4A3(76) W HVSS I don't know if that makes it another whole different critter, but it looks the same to me, outside of the Muzzle Brake.
Heres the address
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m4sherman.html
I hope this is able to help.
Kerry
Heres the address
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m4sherman.html
I hope this is able to help.
Kerry
toadman1
Vendor
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,141 posts
Armorama: 950 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 04:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Got any more pictures??
Will these work?
 |
WEB HOSTING BY
Copyright ©2021 Armorama and Kitmaker Network, a subsidiary of Silver Star Enterprises
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.
All Rights Reserved. Please read our Conditions of Use and Privacy Policy.