Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Problems with Tamiya's M4 Early Suspension
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:16 AM UTC
I've heard the suspension on Tamiya's M4 Early kit is incorrect. Can anyone out there tell me more about this?
Was the suspension that is included used in later M4's? Is the problem with the return rollers and arms?
I know there is detail missing (bolts on the bottom of each unit, etc.) so I would appreciate any help.
Thanks,
Steve
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:29 AM UTC
Steve - the Shemanoholics out there are citing that the M4 (Remanufactured) - which the Tamiya #35190 more closely represents - had the "flat" (horizontal) return roller arrangement as opposed to the "up-swept" variety provided in the model kit. Recommendation is to replace the bogie trucks with parts from the Academy M12 GMC kit if so desired. I didn't, however, because I liked the look of the kit anyway...
Gunnie
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:45 AM UTC
Gunnie,
I'm proably going to go with the kit lower hull and suspension too. I am adding bolt detail, but am not going to worry about the return arms. I'm going to be 'mudding' it up a bit on the lower hull, so this will hid the flaws a bit!
I also heard the entire lower hull was incorrect. I have no clue about this. I will say I really like the upper hull on this one. I think Tamiya did a good job here.
Boy, I sure wish Tamiya would give us an entirely new M4. Maybe a nice M4A1! Come on Tamiya, you just did a Pershing why not a new Sherman?
Steve
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:53 AM UTC
Steve - I really didn't have a lot of heartburn with the lower hull during building this kit. Only gripe I probably would post is the lack of the escape hatch detail on the underside. If you don't put the Verlinden interior inside the lower hull - this would escape notice anyway. The lack of sponson floors is norm with Tamiya anyway - no need to gripe about that either...
I'm beginning to warm up to the M4 - a Tamiya M4A1 would be a welcome addition to my collection. However, I'm kinda hoping Academy would do it instead. I'd bet you'd get more than one bogie truck option, two different sets of wheels (with backs), two different transmission covers, sponson floors, the works!
Gunnie
I'm beginning to warm up to the M4 - a Tamiya M4A1 would be a welcome addition to my collection. However, I'm kinda hoping Academy would do it instead. I'd bet you'd get more than one bogie truck option, two different sets of wheels (with backs), two different transmission covers, sponson floors, the works!
Gunnie
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 01:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve - I really didn't have a lot of heartburn with the lower hull during building this kit. Only gripe I probably would post is the lack of the escape hatch detail on the underside. If you don't put the Verlinden interior inside the lower hull - this would escape notice anyway. The lack of sponson floors is norm with Tamiya anyway - no need to gripe about that either...
I'm beginning to warm up to the M4 - a Tamiya M4A1 would be a welcome addition to my collection. However, I'm kinda hoping Academy would do it instead. I'd bet you'd get more than one bogie truck option, two different sets of wheels (with backs), two different transmission covers, sponson floors, the works!
Gunnie
Couldn't agree more with the Academy suggestion! It would be great if they gave us a bunch of Shermans on par with their newer releases. And, I'm sure Tamiya would just re-hash their M4A3 unfortunately...
The sponsons are no big deal but I do close them. Only takes about half an hour with some sheet styrene. I attach mine right under the upper hull. In my opinion, this is a must fix as I think they add to the finished product.
How did you like that Verlinden interior? Fit OK? Accurate? Expense?
Steve
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 02:19 AM UTC
Heh heh - I think every Verlinden release is too expensive!
I liked the M4 Interior set though, and I'll keep on using it as I build other M4's where appropriate. It looks good accuracy wise - though you can't see much when the hull is joined. Easy cleanup and easy to place inside the model kit. No real bugaboos to warn you about other than the instructions are vague in a couple of places, and that Turret Basket is a true test of modeler's patience...
Gunnie
I liked the M4 Interior set though, and I'll keep on using it as I build other M4's where appropriate. It looks good accuracy wise - though you can't see much when the hull is joined. Easy cleanup and easy to place inside the model kit. No real bugaboos to warn you about other than the instructions are vague in a couple of places, and that Turret Basket is a true test of modeler's patience...
Gunnie
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 02:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
...No real bugaboos to warn you about other than the instructions are vague in a couple of places, and that Turret Basket is a true test of modeler's patience...
Instructions!? With a Verlinden release!? You're kidding, I thought they wanted us to guess at how to put those things together!
Honestly, I've never had a Verlindin set with anything but the box top photo to work from...
Steve
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 02:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
...No real bugaboos to warn you about other than the instructions are vague in a couple of places, and that Turret Basket is a true test of modeler's patience...
Instructions!? With a Verlinden release!? You're kidding, I thought they wanted us to guess at how to put those things together!
Honestly, I've never had a Verlindin set with anything but the box top photo to work from...
Steve
Heh heh - they must treat aircraft modelers much better...
Gunnie
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 03:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve - the Shemanoholics out there are citing that the M4 (Remanufactured) - which the Tamiya #35190 more closely represents - had the "flat" (horizontal) return roller arrangement as opposed to the "up-swept" variety provided in the model kit. Recommendation is to replace the bogie trucks with parts from the Academy M12 GMC kit if so desired. I didn't, however, because I liked the look of the kit anyway...
Gunnie
Gunnie--I am going to cry in envy. Very, very nice job.....
DJ
Chief
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
Armorama: 193 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 04:43 AM UTC
OK, I must be blind or dumb or both. I do not see the difference in the return rollers on the shermans. I got 2 M4A1s one of which has the AFV club suspension and a Tamiya M4A3 and Academy's M-12 GMC, please point out the difference with a photo or line drawing. Thanks 
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 05:46 AM UTC
Okay here goes...without pictures to tell the story.
There were 3 differing types of suspensions for the M4. The first one is from the ole M3 series of tanks and had the return roller mounted directly on top of the suspension unit.
The next is the 'straight top" which had it's retrurn roller mounted toward the rear of the suspension unit. It's wheel top was even with the top of the suspension unit.
The last was the "up-swept" type which has it's return roller mounted on a swept-up position from the top of the suspension unit. It provided more lift in the roller.
There were 3 differing types of suspensions for the M4. The first one is from the ole M3 series of tanks and had the return roller mounted directly on top of the suspension unit.
The next is the 'straight top" which had it's retrurn roller mounted toward the rear of the suspension unit. It's wheel top was even with the top of the suspension unit.
The last was the "up-swept" type which has it's return roller mounted on a swept-up position from the top of the suspension unit. It provided more lift in the roller.
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 06:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Steve - the Shemanoholics out there are citing that the M4 (Remanufactured) - which the Tamiya #35190 more closely represents - had the "flat" (horizontal) return roller arrangement as opposed to the "up-swept" variety provided in the model kit. Recommendation is to replace the bogie trucks with parts from the Academy M12 GMC kit if so desired. I didn't, however, because I liked the look of the kit anyway...
Gunnie
Gunnie--I am going to cry in envy. Very, very nice job.....
DJ
Thanks DJ - I've been placing in-progress photos of this model here in the Gallery - at the Workbench page...
Gunnie
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 06:08 AM UTC
A true early production M4 would have the suspension arrangement like the M3 Lee's, or known as the "straight top", like these:
You could, for less money, rob the bogies from a Tamiya M3 Lee. :-)
You could, for less money, rob the bogies from a Tamiya M3 Lee. :-)
Chief
Joined: February 07, 2002
KitMaker: 498 posts
Armorama: 193 posts
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2002 - 11:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
A true early production M4 would have the suspension arrangement like the M3 Lee's, or known as the "straight top", like these:
You could, for less money, rob the bogies from a Tamiya M3 Lee. :-)
OOORRRRRR, You could be like me and scratch build/convert a set like the ones on my M4A1 in the features article and have as much frustration, I mean fun as I did!
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 04:24 AM UTC
And just because I can, I'll add MORE variables to the Shermie VVSS equation.
Kencelot covers the three major variations, but within the middle group made with the "straight" return roller arms there is more variation. First, the roller itself may be "packed" or not. A packed roller has a stout bushing beneath it in the cradle that is is mounted on, moving it up vertically a couple of inches. This helped provide clearance needed for the steel tracks. Unpacked units have the roller just sitting in the cradle at the end of the straight return roller bracket. Yes, there is a general progression here: Roler over bogie, roller on straight arm, then roller packed on straight arm, then finally upswept arm.
Then there is the track return skid fitted atop the bogie unit when the roller was moved aft. Very early units had a simple semicircular skid. Following this was a flat-topped skid that sloped down at the rear but did NOT project out in front of th bogie housing itself. This is not commonly seen in pictured. Finally there is the flat-topped skid with the curve around the front that projects in front of the bogie, the one we're all used to seeing. BTW, Academy includes all these options in their suspension sprues.
All that clear as mud?
Greg
Kencelot covers the three major variations, but within the middle group made with the "straight" return roller arms there is more variation. First, the roller itself may be "packed" or not. A packed roller has a stout bushing beneath it in the cradle that is is mounted on, moving it up vertically a couple of inches. This helped provide clearance needed for the steel tracks. Unpacked units have the roller just sitting in the cradle at the end of the straight return roller bracket. Yes, there is a general progression here: Roler over bogie, roller on straight arm, then roller packed on straight arm, then finally upswept arm.
Then there is the track return skid fitted atop the bogie unit when the roller was moved aft. Very early units had a simple semicircular skid. Following this was a flat-topped skid that sloped down at the rear but did NOT project out in front of th bogie housing itself. This is not commonly seen in pictured. Finally there is the flat-topped skid with the curve around the front that projects in front of the bogie, the one we're all used to seeing. BTW, Academy includes all these options in their suspension sprues.
All that clear as mud?
Greg
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 04:36 AM UTC
Wonderful additions Greg. Now if they're all not scratching their heads and saying " I had to ask"...
yagdpanzer
Joined: August 21, 2002
KitMaker: 415 posts
Armorama: 231 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 - 10:35 AM UTC
If you're into Allied armor, you can switch the bogies of the Tamiya kit with bogies of the Academy M10, Achilles, or M12. Or if you buy all three and have a comlete extra set of bogies. Each of the Academy kits have two extra bogies each.
Another problem with the Tamiya M4 kits are the weld seams. The weld seams are recessed and should be raised. Easily fixed with stretched sprue and liquid glue.
Another problem with the Tamiya M4 kits are the weld seams. The weld seams are recessed and should be raised. Easily fixed with stretched sprue and liquid glue.
ARMDCAV
Joined: July 29, 2002
KitMaker: 115 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 08:12 AM UTC
Ken thanks for the photos of the early shermans. By the way IIRC which might not be true, that looks like the Brown hotel in Louisville Ky. For some reason the picture jogged my memory though I haven't been there for 36 years. Ft Knoks 66. Would you happen to know where the picture was taken?
Posted: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 08:19 AM UTC
I plan on building mine straight out of the box, it doesn't matter as long as I have fun putting it together.
Chris Pig no.1
Chris
Pig no.1Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 - 08:32 AM UTC
The picture was indeed taken in front of the Brown Hotel , in Louisville, KY.
The picture does not have a caption, so I did a little search and found the above link to the hotel in question. After studying the two pictures, I determined (as if I'm a pro at this...lol) that the hotel is the same. Just look at the window's circleheads and grilles :-) Even the first 2 windows in the corner of the building are standard double-hungs w/o the circleheads.
The picture does not have a caption, so I did a little search and found the above link to the hotel in question. After studying the two pictures, I determined (as if I'm a pro at this...lol) that the hotel is the same. Just look at the window's circleheads and grilles :-) Even the first 2 windows in the corner of the building are standard double-hungs w/o the circleheads.
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