Howdy fellas,

I wanted to pose a query to those of the ranks that enjoy Guntrucks in general, and have a desire to see our boys in Iraq build proper Guntrucks.

I have viewed a decent handful of photos of the growing population of OIF based Guntruck configurations, and have to admit to liking some, and not understanding others......anyway, my question at this time revolves around the potential use of what's called "Bar Armour", or "Stand-off Armour". What this is (for those who may not know) is a series of horizontally spaced lengths of steel rebar assembled in a 'ladder' like fashion and welded to the outside of normal flat armour plating to create a barrier upon which an RPG round would (hopefully) detonate on before coming in contact with the internal 'plate' armour.

What is everyone's opinion about potentially incorporating this style of armoured protection onto these modern 'Guntrucks'?.......redundant?.....advantageous?.........
superflous?........?

Tread.

EDIT: Just as a reminder......the newly deployed Strykers are utilizing this very style of applique armour in the streets of Iraq as we speak. And from all accounts I have come across, effectively as well.

It seems that it could be used on the convoy security vehicles as well. But it seems that the biggest danger they have is with the IED's. If a weight factor is not the issue I would try to give the vehicles as many different types of protection as possible. Now what about the regular cargo and tanker trucks?

Hmmmm....sounds like a great chance to scratchbuild...and, wasn't this the same as used in Vietnam with the Monitor boats?


seems to me this could certainly be incorperated on almost any vehicle. Plate armor is wonderful,. but if you could get the explosive to detonate prior to hitting the armor then your closer to a safer invironment for your men...and afterall, thats what weall want isn't it? Cause their made of plastic and will easily break or melt under such conditions.hehehe

Seems to go by different names...crinoline" wire grid...slat-armor...bar-armor

It sure looks like the same concept.

Howdy fellas,

Many thx for the responses.

From my fairly extensive (when I focus on something, I tend to get a bit 'An*l' about it ) research on the boats of the Brown Water Navy I found that weight was one of the primary reasons for the use of the rebar 'stand-off' armour. The LCM 's that these ships were based upon were already bumping up against a weight vs. floatation issue....hence the accepted use of the 'bar' armour.
The other maybe not-so-small issue is, that the dimensions developed for the spacing of the welded on rebar strips was determined by not being able to fit an RPG round between them, thus protecting the plate armour, and the manned section behind.
And....as far as both field-expedient and easy-to-do goes, any talented welder could throw a jig together, spot weld the rebar onto the 'stringers', and whip out some of this protection at a fairly decent savings in both dollars spent, and weight considerations.

NOW.......to you kglack43......where were you when I was looking so desperately for BWN pics!!!!......that photo of that Monitor is one I haven't seen before......got anymore????

Tread.

Oh...and is that guy on the right of the picture relieving himself off the side of the boat??? :-)

EDIT: kglack....I believe the term 'slat' armour is applicable to the new "stand-off" armour being used on the Strykers in OIF. If you look at it, it isn't round bars, but rather flat stock that is used in it's configuration.

Tread...i use a search engine called www.dogpile.com press the IMAGES button at the top, type in anything. I typed in VIETNAM MONITOR and this image is from one of the sites it came up with.

and as for the guy on the boat....i believe he's paying his respects to the NVA.

goodluck bud

kevin glackmeyer

Tread:
Regardless of what you choose to do, make your crew a bit interesting: make them Air Force.

There is, of course, a "stand-off" advantage against certain weapons(RPG); no advantage against others(IED).

Even if the weight is acceptable, what does it do to the stability (center of gravity) of the vehicle ? I understand the Strykers are pretty top-heavy from the added armor.

John

AIR FORCE? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (:-)

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/archive/local_18502902.shtml

Nathan, you have a point yer trying to make?

Yes, that there are USAF logistics units & personnel who have been cross-trained to, and are doing, "Army" logistics work out there .... Perhaps you missed those stories ....

John (Army)

Hello
Although, the question has been answered I will try to add some info. The number one method of attack against us military vehicles is the IED. RPG requires the firer to be at least inside 300 meter of the target. When an RPG is fired the signature of the firing is easy to see. IED are used with cell phones, garage door openers and RC controllers.
Now RPG are still a threat in Iraq, they like to fire them at soft targets( tractor trailers). The slat armor would off set vehicle stability and makes the vehicle to wide for the roads (plus the weight).
Shameless plug for link:


http://community.webshots.com/user/irocarmy88

That makes sense. I didn't think about the narrow roads over there. The added weight of the re-bar would cut down on the amount of cargo that the trucks could haul. I know from experience in Nam that when we tried to add extra protection to the cargo trucks and then load our cargo on we would experience frame breaks. The old 2 1/2 ton just couldn't handle the extra weight.

I got to wondering, the re-barb doesn't hold up from the blast, it only makes the blast happen away from the armor.

Many years ago they came out with a nylon that they use for sprockets on dirt bikes, that is super light weight, just as strong as steel, cause that is why they use it, now it doesn't last forever, but neither will that re-barb after one blast.

But this stuff if made right could save thousands of pounds on one vehicle. Just see if it can withstand the impact, and set it off without crumbling first.

Kerry

Howdy all,

Many thx for the input, but could someone please expand on, and maybe explain prcisely how these IED's are constructed / deployed / etc?
Are they just hidden explosives simply sitting on the side of the road in ambush similar to the placement of Clamor's?? Or are some of these device's more 'active'?
tia.

Tread.

The IEDs are anything from pipebombs to old munitions, artillery shells, what have you, rigged with a timer, chemical or mechanical, trip wire, and more than a few are command detonated. Hence the name "improvised" there isn't much to them.

From my understanding, the only effective way to protect against mines and IEDs is to discover them before they are blown up. Side and under armor (two lacking items) are the only passive measure against IEDs

I wouldn't be suprised if many of the reported IEDs on the news are really just mines.

Jeff

And hope they aren't command-detonated and the bubba with transmitter isn't watching you discover them ....

John

Thats one of the inherent problems with destroying IEDs. When an IED is spotted, the on-scene unit clears out the surrounding area of civilians (and potentional detonators). I would think show of force would deter a would-be detonator. UXO personnel have certain tactics (which is restriced, but somewhat predicable to guess at) to counter a potential IED. These guys training tells them to always assume it is the most dangerous type of fuse for the particular bomb faced (proximity for bombs, mortar shells, arty shells, and command detonated for certain land weapons like claymore-type mines.

Also, I was searching around and saw photos of mortar rounds liberally covered by small stones. It explodes adding pebbles to its lethal mixture of explosives, shrapnel, and concussive force.

Jeff