I am working on a King tiger and i was wondering if there were any painted with a white wash.... I cant seem to find any ref ..any help or ref will be appreciated
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white wash
commanche1
Joined: April 26, 2004
KitMaker: 61 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 05:59 PM UTC
I am working on a King tiger and i was wondering if there were any painted with a white wash.... I cant seem to find any ref ..any help or ref will be appreciated
TsunamiBomb
Joined: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 06:28 PM UTC
Welcome to Armorama! Glad to see you here in the Modeling community...
Ok to answer your question...Not to be rude, but almost all tanks during winter season with snow were white washed. Tigers, being huge tanks definatly needed some kind of camo. Heres a pic of a tiger white washed for you.
Ok to answer your question...Not to be rude, but almost all tanks during winter season with snow were white washed. Tigers, being huge tanks definatly needed some kind of camo. Heres a pic of a tiger white washed for you.
Martinnnn
Joined: April 26, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 08:48 PM UTC
According to the site I got this image from, this camouflage was used in the Ardennes 44-45....so that sounds like what you wanted to know:
Blade48mrd
Joined: September 03, 2004
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 07:07 AM UTC
Commanche1-
Remember that in the early part of the Ardennes Campaign there was no snow and the armor entered the conflict without white wash. The snow didn't start in earnest til around Christmas time (after 23rd I think) and so a white washed tank would have stood out against the darker background as much as a 3 color scheme would later against the heavy snow, so white washes came later. There were King Tigers were in two different "units"; sSS Pz Abt 501 with the 1SS Panzer assigned to Peiper (north section) and the only Heer unit at BOB with King Tigers, Pz Abt 506 (south nearer Bastogne). The "famous" King Tiger "222" (assigned to 1 SS Panzer) pictures shown the riding Fallschirmjager troops riding in the Stavelot area have no white wash. So it is all a matter of the when/who that you want to portray your King Tiger. Also some had zimmerit and others didn't. I don't have the link to these photos, but I'm sure that someone else could provide them. Hope this helps some.
Blade48mrd
Remember that in the early part of the Ardennes Campaign there was no snow and the armor entered the conflict without white wash. The snow didn't start in earnest til around Christmas time (after 23rd I think) and so a white washed tank would have stood out against the darker background as much as a 3 color scheme would later against the heavy snow, so white washes came later. There were King Tigers were in two different "units"; sSS Pz Abt 501 with the 1SS Panzer assigned to Peiper (north section) and the only Heer unit at BOB with King Tigers, Pz Abt 506 (south nearer Bastogne). The "famous" King Tiger "222" (assigned to 1 SS Panzer) pictures shown the riding Fallschirmjager troops riding in the Stavelot area have no white wash. So it is all a matter of the when/who that you want to portray your King Tiger. Also some had zimmerit and others didn't. I don't have the link to these photos, but I'm sure that someone else could provide them. Hope this helps some.
Blade48mrd
Easy_Co
Joined: September 11, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 07:22 AM UTC
Hi Commanche1 welcome to the big "A". right Ive checked my battle of the bulge bible and theres a photo of a whitewashed King tiger knocked out near Engelsdorf. tank number 312of 3/sSS-Pz Abt.501 Hope this helps. 
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 09:46 AM UTC
Hi Commannche1,
As a couple of people have already said, yes there were some Tiger II's that were whitewashed, but very few of the pics I have seen were taken during the Bulge. Tiger II "312", as John said, had at least a partial whitewash as seen in the pics I have, and maybe a few more. (I have only seen one other pic of a Tiger II possibly whitewashed during the Bulge) As Blade said the snow didn't really begin till around Christmas and by this time the Germans had very little time to paint on camo, they were too busy trying to survive. Tiger II "314" that Martin posted was actually in Hungary during winter '45. This is where most of the whitewashed Tiger II's I have seen pics of were located.
OK Harrison to quote you..."Not to be rude" but saying almost all tanks were whitewashed during the winter is a pretty broad statement. I have seen many, many pics of tanks from different countries during WW2 that were not whitewashed, including German tanks, and Tigers, especially late in the war when the Tiger II was being used. Also the pics you posted were Tiger I's in use on the eastern front earlier in the war, when the Germans still had time to whitewash many of their vehicles, the original post was asking about Tiger II's.
Mike
As a couple of people have already said, yes there were some Tiger II's that were whitewashed, but very few of the pics I have seen were taken during the Bulge. Tiger II "312", as John said, had at least a partial whitewash as seen in the pics I have, and maybe a few more. (I have only seen one other pic of a Tiger II possibly whitewashed during the Bulge) As Blade said the snow didn't really begin till around Christmas and by this time the Germans had very little time to paint on camo, they were too busy trying to survive. Tiger II "314" that Martin posted was actually in Hungary during winter '45. This is where most of the whitewashed Tiger II's I have seen pics of were located.
Quoted Text
Ok to answer your question...Not to be rude, but almost all tanks during winter season with snow were white washed. Tigers, being huge tanks definatly needed some kind of camo. Heres a pic of a tiger white washed for you.
OK Harrison to quote you..."Not to be rude" but saying almost all tanks were whitewashed during the winter is a pretty broad statement. I have seen many, many pics of tanks from different countries during WW2 that were not whitewashed, including German tanks, and Tigers, especially late in the war when the Tiger II was being used. Also the pics you posted were Tiger I's in use on the eastern front earlier in the war, when the Germans still had time to whitewash many of their vehicles, the original post was asking about Tiger II's.
Mike
thebear
Joined: November 15, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 11:27 AM UTC
I mentioned this in an answer to another question but ,from what I have been reading lately maybe a few got "some" white paint but I do believe it was after the offensive had been stopped and the Germans were on the defense..Some where around the beginning of January.. Like it has been stated earlier ..the offensive started before the snow ,and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't stop to paint their tanks while they still had the momentum on their side.
All the best
Rick
All the best
Rick
TsunamiBomb
Joined: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 12:18 PM UTC
Kelly, I dont recall it being a broad statement. Alot of tanks were whitewashed. By the way, he edited his post after I replied with the wrong answer. The tigers in the pics werent all from the Eastern Front. About 3 of them were in the bulge.
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 03:08 PM UTC
Quoted Text
but almost all tanks during winter season with snow were white washed. Tigers, being huge tanks definatly needed some kind of camo.
That seems pretty broad to me.
Quoted Text
The tigers in the pics werent all from the Eastern Front. About 3 of them were in the bulge.
Interesting, in all the refs I have, and all the pics I have seen via the web, I have only seen 2 maybe 3 pics of Tiger I's that took part in the Bulge. (and two of those were of the same tank) In the pics I have seen the Tigers were not whitewashed. Could you please point out the pics above that were taken during the Bulge?
Mike
TsunamiBomb
Joined: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 03:20 PM UTC
Well, actually Im not going to feed onto your argument. We both see different things, and Im sure in a way we are both right. Therefore, we will beleive in what we beleive and keep in mind, there are limited pictures of WWII. That means that of all the tigers and tons of military tanks there were, there were only so many pictures. Im glad you found a couple of pictures of non whitewashed tigers but imagine all the ones that were whitewashed...
PS: I dont recall him asking anything about the ardennes offensive in his post. Please point out in his post where he said he wanted pictures of Battle of the bulge Tigers.
PS: I dont recall him asking anything about the ardennes offensive in his post. Please point out in his post where he said he wanted pictures of Battle of the bulge Tigers.
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 03:38 PM UTC
He didn't say anything about the Ardennes offensive, one of the other posters did, and the next 2 after him. I was trying to correct the info about Tiger 314, and continuing the Ardennes theme from those 2 posters. Maybe we are both right, you made a statement that "about" three of the pics were from the Bulge, I just asked which of the pics were they. Oh and I don't really need to imagine all the pics of whitewashed Tigers, I know many exist. I was pointing out that there are many of Tiger II's during the winter of '44-45 that were not whitewashed.
Mike
Mike
TsunamiBomb
Joined: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 03:44 PM UTC
Im not going to continue this argument, and try to flame you out of the thread. I find your words very offensive.
BTW: I hope you realise you tried to flame a 15 year old...
BTW: I hope you realise you tried to flame a 15 year old...
ShermiesRule
Joined: December 11, 2003
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 04:12 PM UTC
Searching through my sources I find that most of the tanks on the Eastern Front carried winter camouflage while most of the tanks on the Western Front did not carry winter camouflage. I do not know why.
Also, regardless of Fronts, I have very few resources that KTs were washed. PzfwIV plus variants, V and VI but not KTs.
Also, regardless of Fronts, I have very few resources that KTs were washed. PzfwIV plus variants, V and VI but not KTs.
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 04:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Im not going to continue this argument, and try to flame you out of the thread. I find your words very offensive.
BTW: I hope you realise you tried to flame a 15 year old...
Well I'm certainly glad you're not going to continue arguing. I wasn't trying to argue, I was trying to point out some facts. I asked if you could tell me which of the pics was taken during the Bulge, apparently you can't. Now if you find that offensive also, then sorry, get over it. (now that I think was a flame
) It doesn't matter if your 15 or 50, if you're going to make a statement about something you should be ready to back it up. If you can tell me which of the pics was taken during the Bulge I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, otherwise I'm done with this thread myself.Mike
Angela
Joined: September 01, 2004
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 06:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
.
PS: I dont recall him asking anything about the ardennes offensive in his post. Please point out in his post where he said he wanted pictures of Battle of the bulge Tigers.
It's right above and before the first post.
Campaign Central Command
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This Topic: white wash
Group: Ardennes Offensive
Shermiesrule, yes, I agree with you that most of the vehicles in the Eastern Front are whitewashed while those in the Western are not. Shermie, I'm planning to build a Nashorn dio in the Eastern Front...yellow with brown and green camouflage. Would it be okay if I would not white-wash it? Or would it be better if I did?
Angela
TsunamiBomb
Joined: September 21, 2004
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Posted: Monday, December 20, 2004 - 07:15 PM UTC
Well heres my pictures from the western front, hope your happy...
You really need to calm down by the way, Kelley... Your not the greatest historian out there.
And yes I know I should be able to back my statement up, I made the comment that I was 15 because I expected you to be mature and a bigger man than me. Maybe set some examples for the other youngsters.
You really need to calm down by the way, Kelley... Your not the greatest historian out there.
And yes I know I should be able to back my statement up, I made the comment that I was 15 because I expected you to be mature and a bigger man than me. Maybe set some examples for the other youngsters.
Easy_Co
Joined: September 11, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 12:49 AM UTC
I hope I can clear up some of the disputed points raised for commanche, I info came from Steve Zalogas Battle of the Bulge book published by Concorde. Now Im no historian but Mr Zaloga is and a terrific modeller as well the photo I qouted is a King tiger whiewashed by a mop going on the looks of it, on top of the tank are two G.I.'s stringing a comms wire while a third does what most soldiers do he's chatting up some young lasses walking past. Re other vehicles this book has many many photo's of Shermans of all types M.8's high speed tractors and jeeps all in winter cammo, on the german side we have a king tiger, Panthers,stugs 3&4's and a mk4 all in winter cammo i might add all the german stuff is knocked out and the cammo applied very roughly .really if you wanted to model any of the vehicles involved in that huge battle you could white wash it in my humble opinion
ShermiesRule
Joined: December 11, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 02:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Shermiesrule, yes, I agree with you that most of the vehicles in the Eastern Front are whitewashed while those in the Western are not. Shermie, I'm planning to build a Nashorn dio in the Eastern Front...yellow with brown and green camouflage. Would it be okay if I would not white-wash it? Or would it be better if I did?
Angela
Angela, I am not an expert on German armor by any means but artistically speaking... I would white wash it if it were a winter scene. I would save the 3 color camouflage for a non-winter scene. If you have a collection of tanks like me I would do the white wash just so that all my tanks don't look the same but in different settings. Perhaps since I build so many OD Shermans I not only have to consider how each Sherman looks individually but how they fit into the overall Sherman collection. Does that make sense?
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
KitMaker: 1,966 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 02:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well heres my pictures from the western front, hope your happy...
Actually the refs I have at hand say those two pics are of Tigers from sPz Abt 502, which only saw action on the eastern front. Now granted this comes from "Panzer Colors III" by Bruce Culver which is known to have some miscaptions of pictures, but when cross checking with "Tigers In Combat I " the markings on the tanks are consistent with what the 502 used.
Quoted Text
You really need to calm down by the way, Kelley... Your not the greatest historian out there.
And yes I know I should be able to back my statement up, I made the comment that I was 15 because I expected you to be mature and a bigger man than me. Maybe set some examples for the other youngsters.
Harrison, maybe you need to go back and read some of these posts. I never claimed to be a great historian, but I have read many books by some people who are known to be very good (if not great) historians. All I was doing from the beginning was trying to correct some information that was posted. Maybe I was trying to set an example, that being, be sure of your info before you put it out there. If anyone here needs to calm down I think it's you, I'm doing fine. Now if you really want to continue this discussion we can do it here like this, where I'm sure people are getting tired of it, or you can PM me and we discuss it that way.
Cheers,
Mike
commanche1
Joined: April 26, 2004
KitMaker: 61 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 12:23 PM UTC
Thanks for the help ... I didnt think my little question would get so much response..thanks to everyone
commanche1
Joined: April 26, 2004
KitMaker: 61 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 01:59 PM UTC
That was a nice pic where did you find it....
commanche1
Joined: April 26, 2004
KitMaker: 61 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 02:03 PM UTC
OOPs I am sorry for omitting that important point i am building a kit for a campaign that i am in pertaining to to the Battle of the Bulge...It seems that everyone figured out that I was building a Tiger 2 for the Ardennes...Again sorry for that omission
commanche1
Joined: April 26, 2004
KitMaker: 61 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 02:06 PM UTC
To all the Treadheads that responded thank you ... I am building Dragon's Tiger 2 or Tamiya the one for the Ardennes ...
bowjunkie35
Joined: November 19, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 02:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Im not going to continue this argument, and try to flame you out of the thread. I find your words very offensive.
BTW: I hope you realise you tried to flame a 15 year old...
Dude, you need to chill a bit. The definition of "flame" or"flaming" as it pertains to forum topics and postings refers to a statement that is inflamatory in nature. See the connection in the words there? "flame", "inflamatory".
Kelley in my opinion made no such remarks. However, it seems to me that it was you that was trying to bait Kelley into a flame war. As far as I see it, he just pointed out some innaccuracies in your replies. Nothing wrong with that.. 15 or not, respect goes both ways.
Rant over. Back on topic.
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