This is a superb model not without its faults. I started mine this weekend and wanted to offer some comments to those of my fellow modelers with this Sherman on the shelf. Overall, the kits has some flash, but nothing a sharp hobby knife does not clean up quickly. Parts fit amazing well. I have the Eduard PE set for her. Very expensive, but well worth the effort so far. The PE provides mesh fro the hatches and a whole lotta goodies. You can easily buld the model without it, but I took the plunge. I made my own 75mm main gun out of plastic tubing and a great deal of sanding. Not too bad for a first try. We had a conversation going about the the other day. At any rate, it worked for me. The kit supplied main gun did not appeal to me. Now, I looked at the plastic beams for the side of the vehicle. Well, this was a field expedient means to limit the damage from Japanese 47mm AT guns. So, it had to be a fairly substantial piece of wood. The plastic just did not do a thing for me. I cut Basswood to shape using the plastic kit part for a template. Next, I soaked some planking in a weathering mix to simulate a wood finish. Now, when everything dries later this week, the plan is to glue the strip top the Basswood, place pin heads in the wood to simulate nails then place it on the side of the vehicle. I am going to paint her a straight dulled OD but leave the planks in a wood color. I'll place white decals on the planks afterwards. Hope to get some photos out to you and let you know where I go from here with the wading kit. Comments on painting and details are very welcomed.
thanks
DJ
Armor/AFV
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Italeri USMC M4 Sherman
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 06:06 AM UTC
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 06:42 AM UTC
Most of the photos of Pacific Shermans had the wood armor painted as well as the rest of the tank. Some in elaborate camo schemes. I guess they had time to repaint them after they added all the extra wire and wood.
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 07:08 AM UTC
Here's one for you DJ: 
Look at the camo they painted over the wood.
Look at the camo they painted over the wood.
Ranger74
Joined: April 04, 2002
KitMaker: 1,290 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 08:42 AM UTC
I had read that the wood was to defeat magnetic AT mines, not defeat the 47mm AT gun. Similar to zimmerit on german tanks.
ArmouredSprue
Joined: January 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,958 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 09:03 AM UTC
Hey DJ, your history sounds real good, let us see the result, put a pic of the beast here! 
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:02 AM UTC
DJ,
Sounds good. I think most of the wood would have been painted over. But, if your reference photos show otherwise...
Are you going to be adding planks over the suspension?
Does that PE set include any of the elaborate mesh hatch guards that were meant to discourage the Japanese suicide squads? Looks like that would be a real job to model those!
I know there were lots of sandbag and spare track jobs too.
Don't know if you have Ed Gilberts 'Marine Tank Battles in the Pacific.' It's an awesome book and would be a great reference. Some nice B&W photos. It's a new book so you can order it. Really worth picking up.
Looking at some of the additions those guys used on their vehicles really tells you how savage the fighting was on those islands.
Keep us posted, sounds neat!
Steve
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 07:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
DJ,
Sounds good. I think most of the wood would have been painted over. But, if your reference photos show otherwise...
Are you going to be adding planks over the suspension?
Does that PE set include any of the elaborate mesh hatch guards that were meant to discourage the Japanese suicide squads? Looks like that would be a real job to model those!
I know there were lots of sandbag and spare track jobs too.
Don't know if you have Ed Gilberts 'Marine Tank Battles in the Pacific.' It's an awesome book and would be a great reference. Some nice B&W photos. It's a new book so you can order it. Really worth picking up.
Looking at some of the additions those guys used on their vehicles really tells you how savage the fighting was on those islands.
Keep us posted, sounds neat!
Steve
Steve--the PE set includes the mesh (choice of two types). I am putting T-49 track on her from AFV. As several post here confirm, I can not find a photo where the wood side plates are not painted in the same pattern as the tank. In fact, the Osprey book on modeling the Sherman has two distinct patterns. Pretty neat looking stuff. Regardless, if you get the model consider ditching the plastic "wood" panels. As for their use. Well, there is some question as to whether they were intended to preclude anti-magnetic mines or AT fire. Still have not found a reference that clearly states the purpose.
DJ
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 08:39 PM UTC
Sounds good DJ keep us informed. Is this the M-4 Marine one? 
Also in the osprey series of modeling books version 1 their is a build up of this I seem to remember but would have to check
Also in the osprey series of modeling books version 1 their is a build up of this I seem to remember but would have to check210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:20 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sounds good DJ keep us informed. Is this the M-4 Marine one?
Jeff--this is the Italeri USMC kit. The PE cost more than the model. It contains among other things some nice brush guards for the lights and screens for the wading system. The Osprey book has some superb photos. I tend towards the Green and Brown paint scheme. See how it goes. The wood looks neat just as is, but authenticity leads me toi change my original painting idea.
DJ
Folgore
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:33 PM UTC
Could someone explain these mesh hatch guards to me? I'm just curious as to what they were exactly.
Nic
Nic
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Could someone explain these mesh hatch guards to me? I'm just curious as to what they were exactly.
Nic
Nic,
The mesh guards were to prevent the Japanese suicide suads from getting easy access to the hatches. And if the Japanese tried to put an explosive charge onto the hatch, they were also there to give a little distance between the hatch and the explosive.
Also, you will see some crews welded vertical spikes, or big nails, onto the upper surface of the tanks. Again, to keep the suicide squads off.
Hey, if you modeled these spikes, it might keep kids from touching your kit on the contest table!
The close fighting in the Pacific led to many experiments, like the el scorpion flame projectors...
Steve
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 10:53 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextCould someone explain these mesh hatch guards to me? I'm just curious as to what they were exactly.
Nic
Nic,
The mesh guards were to prevent the Japanese suicide suads from getting easy access to the hatches. And if the Japanese tried to put an explosive charge onto the hatch, they were also there to give a little distance between the hatch and the explosive.
Also, you will see some crews welded vertical spikes, or big nails, onto the upper surface of the tanks. Again, to keep the suicide squads off.
Hey, if you modeled these spikes, it might keep kids from touching your kit on the contest table!
The close fighting in the Pacific led to many experiments, like the el scorpion flame projectors...
Steve
Steve---is the planking on the sides of the vehicle used to prevent the attachment of magnetic mines and/or AT fire?
thanks
DJ
Cob
Joined: May 23, 2002
KitMaker: 275 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:07 PM UTC
DJ,
Wndering how you achieved the gun tube taper? Mk 1 mod 0 eyeball? I got a call at 0230 last night. One of my lathe operators is in jail and the other one ,his boss, is down at the courthouse for the arraignment this AM. Good thing you figured out how to do it yourself. I believe the key to a taper lies in the tool rest. On a large lathe, the tool rest moves axially and the operator can change the position of the tool radially. When setting up the material, you would normally find the center of both ends and place the rod on the lathe using those marks.To produce a taper, you could purposefully offset one end by 1/2 the amount you want to remove. I'm not sure I'm being very clear...it would be a lot easier to show you what I mean.
v/r,
Cob
Wndering how you achieved the gun tube taper? Mk 1 mod 0 eyeball? I got a call at 0230 last night. One of my lathe operators is in jail and the other one ,his boss, is down at the courthouse for the arraignment this AM. Good thing you figured out how to do it yourself. I believe the key to a taper lies in the tool rest. On a large lathe, the tool rest moves axially and the operator can change the position of the tool radially. When setting up the material, you would normally find the center of both ends and place the rod on the lathe using those marks.To produce a taper, you could purposefully offset one end by 1/2 the amount you want to remove. I'm not sure I'm being very clear...it would be a lot easier to show you what I mean.
v/r,
Cob
sniper
Joined: May 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,065 posts
Armorama: 508 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve---is the planking on the sides of the vehicle used to prevent the attachment of magnetic mines and/or AT fire?
thanks
DJ
DJ,
I'll try to check at home tonight. But there was often times a layer of sand between the hull and the wooden planks. So, my guess is that this was to help stop AT rounds. I think some crews used concrete too. Certainly, this would help with any magnetic charges too...
The planks were attached with very long bolts in some of the photos I have seen. This would leave space for dirt and sand. And, anyone who has fired a weapon knows how good earth is at stopping bullets.
Steve
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:35 PM UTC
Quoted Text
DJ,
Wndering how you achieved the gun tube taper? Mk 1 mod 0 eyeball? I got a call at 0230 last night. One of my lathe operators is in jail and the other one ,his boss, is down at the courthouse for the arraignment this AM. Good thing you figured out how to do it yourself. I believe the key to a taper lies in the tool rest. On a large lathe, the tool rest moves axially and the operator can change the position of the tool radially. When setting up the material, you would normally find the center of both ends and place the rod on the lathe using those marks.To produce a taper, you could purposefully offset one end by 1/2 the amount you want to remove. I'm not sure I'm being very clear...it would be a lot easier to show you what I mean.
v/r,
Cob
COB---nice to hear all is normal with the USN this morning. Pretty simple set up to make the tube. I measured the kit tube then found a plastic tube of the same width. Cut about the same size as the kit tube with a fudge factor. Marked off the area to be tapered. Placed a metal rod into the tube. Secured the tube in a variable speed drill, placed the metal rod's other end in a board then taped it off. It spun and was amazing stable. Mommy handled the drill, I took a sanding stick to the plastic. When it looked about right I cut off the excess and glued it to the mantle. I know I am off on the taper, but It looks a whole lot better than the kit main gun. The PE is very nice and very, very fragile. However, it is going together at a nice pace. I am going to get as much done as possible this week. On business travel next week so painting will wait until I return.
DJ
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 12:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve---is the planking on the sides of the vehicle used to prevent the attachment of magnetic mines and/or AT fire?
Yes, magnetic mines ...................AND - it was placed the length of the running gear, to
prevent the Jap's from literally throwing themselves into the open space between the
the bogies, with the mines and even high explosives strapped to their body that would
detonate when they threw themselves into the space.
- ralph
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
Armorama: 4,573 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 02:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextSteve---is the planking on the sides of the vehicle used to prevent the attachment of magnetic mines and/or AT fire?
Yes, magnetic mines ...................AND - it was placed the length of the running gear, to
prevent the Jap's from literally throwing themselves into the open space between the
the bogies, with the mines and even high explosives strapped to their body that would
detonate when they threw themselves into the space.
- ralph
Ralph----is the side planking attached directly to the hull? Or, is it secured on something welded to the hull?
thanks
DJ
generalzod
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 3,172 posts
Armorama: 2,495 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 04:55 AM UTC
DJ,which version are you building? The A2 or A3? I have the kit also It doesn't have the correct exhaust plate,or rear engine deck over hang for the A2 I wish Italeri would have included those parts as well and not just the A2 engine deck I guess they figured if you put the wading trunks on no one would notice
Chad #:-)
Chad #:-)
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 05:06 AM UTC
You guys have got to remember that this kit came out 13 years ago (less wading trunks and applique armor). They cut corners when this was released as the M4A2 "Jumbo" way back in 1989. They did make it into a good M4A3 Calliope back in 1996.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 08:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Ralph----is the side planking attached directly to the hull? Or, is it secured on something welded to the hull?
thanks
DJ
Hi DJ, I can't say for sure about the 25mm oak planks that were attached to the side's
of the hull. What I'm talking about is the planks that were attached across the bogies.
My Uncle was in the 26th Marines/5th Div on Iwo (sadly he was one of the many KIA )
and the M4A3's of the 5th Marine Tank Battalion that formed part of the 5th marine Div.
had two row's of oak planks BOLTED on to each of the suspension bogies
The tanks were given the nick-name - 5th Battalion Hedgehog's.
.........Although I can't say for sure.....but from the photo's I have seen, it look's as if
the plank's on the hull side's were also BOLTED on. I have read that the cavity spaces between the HULL planks were filled with cement.
HOPE THIS HELPS
- ralph
Kencelot
Joined: December 27, 2001
KitMaker: 4,268 posts
Armorama: 2,804 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 09:37 AM UTC
DJ, this photo is a bit better than the one above as it shows more detail of the planks on the bogies.
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 09:40 AM UTC
DJ - I found this pic of a Sherman on Iwo Jima.
Click on the link and then click on the photo itself to inlarge it.
You can see the the planks are bolted directly to the hull.
http://shopping.corbis.com/prodconfig/digitalpicture/NA003983.html?bt=http%3A%2F%2Fshopping%2Ecorbis%2Ecom%2Fsearch%2Fproductsearch%2Easp%3Fsearch%3Dtanks%2520on%2520iwo%2520jima%26pf%3DDIGPIC&search=tanks+on+iwo+jima&pf=DIGPIC&navid=create/digitalpictures&imageid=10010552
- ralph
Click on the link and then click on the photo itself to inlarge it.
You can see the the planks are bolted directly to the hull.
http://shopping.corbis.com/prodconfig/digitalpicture/NA003983.html?bt=http%3A%2F%2Fshopping%2Ecorbis%2Ecom%2Fsearch%2Fproductsearch%2Easp%3Fsearch%3Dtanks%2520on%2520iwo%2520jima%26pf%3DDIGPIC&search=tanks+on+iwo+jima&pf=DIGPIC&navid=create/digitalpictures&imageid=10010552
- ralph
screamingeagle
Joined: January 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,027 posts
Armorama: 595 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 09:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
DJ, this photo is a bit better than the one above as it shows more detail of the planks on the bogies
HEADS UP PHOTO KEN
That's exacty what I was talking about ............the planks across the bogie suspension !
The Jap's would actually throw themselves into the suspension gap's .....holding
belt's of grenade's ......mines......and other explosives. So that's is why the tanker's start
bolting on these planks across the bogies.
- ralph
- ralph
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:03 AM UTC
Same reason why the US goes from spoked to solid road wheels too. Don't want a suicide jockey sticking an object into the spokes and disabling the tank.
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 06:04 PM UTC
I am telling you DJ get the book scale armor book 1 it has all off the series of the Marine Corp versions in it. By Osprey. I have it if you need any info could scan and send.
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