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Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
What fires this thing
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:06 AM UTC
Okay what fires this thing?

http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/modern/russia/inaction/grozny-86.jpg

You are not telling me it is the tank behind it that fires this thing are you.
2-2dragoon
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:11 AM UTC
The tank behind it.. . it is a tank round. That is a 120 Mm gun there... I think... but that is definitely a tank round, with its attached projectile and all. That is more than likely a HEP round, given the shape of the projectile.
Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:14 AM UTC
the tank in the background fires those shells. it is a T-62 and those are 115mm shells.

Chris Pig no.1
BlueBear
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:48 AM UTC
I believe that I'll second the nomination for HEP, but is that a T-62 or a T-54/55 in which case it would be 100mm---no thermal jacket or bore evacuator showing.
shiryon
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 11:55 AM UTC
I think its a T-62by the shape of turret and spacing of the road wheels.The space is after the third wheel from front. What scares me is the look of the ammo. Is it only I who detect RUST. #:-)

Josh Weingarten
Aka shiryon
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 06:44 PM UTC
Some minor surface rust, nothing that looks like it makes the rounds unserviceable.
sgtreef
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Posted: Monday, September 02, 2002 - 08:25 PM UTC
Okay thanks I thought so. As I never was in the armor part goosh that is one big round what is the muzzle velocity of this thing looks like even with reactive armor that thing would go right thru. I do have a casing from a 105MM that I found On Ft Sill fell off the scrap truck but nowhere as big as that thing.

All you armor guys are allways in the mud so are your compatriots
shiryon
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 12:21 AM UTC
I agree its just surface rust, but I never remember our round being even that dirty. Let alone being layed out in the mud. Rounds went from packing case to to tank one at a time. unloading happened the same way. with the loader placing them to his preferences.Just seems bad sop.

Josh Weingarten
aKa shiryon
bodhi75
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 01:03 AM UTC
About the rounds and their condition - when I used to be in service 1993-94, we had old russian guns captured by finns in WW 2. They were not in mint condition, but still functioned pretty well... that was the last time those guns were used in the service, so we had as much ammo as we could fire. It was pretty funny - there were really messy shots from fifties, I mean dirty and even rusty despite the grease they had, but they still functioned as they should have. I guess the dirt and rust comes off pretty clean when you fire the gun, huh?
And when those 122mm granades started to fall down, I think little rusty spots didn't just matter there. :-)
Anyway, pretty impressive shots I've to say. First time I've seen any tankrounds.

Cheers, Marko N.
ARMDCAV
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 03:28 AM UTC
The last time I saw combat rounds in that condition was in Korea in M48's . The rust and or dirt around the lip of the bottom of the casing reminds me of rounds stored in the ready rack. The wear further up looks like scuffing from hold down brackets. and the marks on the projectiles looks like someone had been using them for steps to get in and out of the turret. Laid out on boards like that suggest that the tank may be down and the ammo off loaded while the vehicle is being repaired. Its obvious that its cold where ever he's at. this may be a reserve unit by looking at the civilian jacket that he is using to pickup the round with.
ARMDCAV
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 04:02 AM UTC
A couple of thought on those rounds. They seem to be about 4 to 4 1/2 " which would make them about 110 mm. There seems to be set screws on the fuses. if this is true than the rounds are HEP rounds. The fuse on HEP rounds can be set to detonate super guick for bursts to throw shrapnel when firing at troops and light armored or soft skined vehicles, quick for blowing walls down and delay for penetration into bunkers. I see 3 colors here. The color should tell you what the rounds are if you have references.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 04:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The last time I saw combat rounds in that condition was in Korea in M48's . The rust and or dirt around the lip of the bottom of the casing reminds me of rounds stored in the ready rack. The wear further up looks like scuffing from hold down brackets. and the marks on the projectiles looks like someone had been using them for steps to get in and out of the turret. Laid out on boards like that suggest that the tank may be down and the ammo off loaded while the vehicle is being repaired. Its obvious that its cold where ever he's at. this may be a reserve unit by looking at the civilian jacket that he is using to pickup the round with.



Cav - - -I hope you saw these "dirty" rounds in Korea being handled by an allied nation and not US Tankers. I'd be annoyed if one of my guys had something to fire in that condition. It appears to more that surface dirt. I agree that whole scene does not look right. Maybe, he is one of the rebels....that would make more sense to me.
DJ
ARMDCAV
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 05:24 AM UTC
What your seeing is the condition everything is in a combat line unit. Scruffy dosn't mean shoddy or lack of service or maintenance. These rounds are perfectly capable of doing what they are intended to do. You don't repaint ammo. Not in the field. Now is the time for this soldier to clean these rounds, while they're out of the tank. When you have the time and the resources you straighten bent fenders, replace broken lights and guards, clean your pioneer tools, restencel markings and other nonessintial housekeeping chores. Everyday you do the essentials. Whats the norm in a combat line unit would get you gigged state side. The essentials are those things you do to insure that your vehicle is capable of completing your mission. A shovel is a hell of a lot more important than a paint brush and a tanker bar is a sacred object. A tank has to do 3 things to be effective. Shoot, move and comunicate. Not to be confused with the 3 attributes of armor which are fire power, mobility and shock effect. Shoot means your gun is clean, your optics are calbrated and sighted in and your ammo is correct for your mission. Sabot is useless against troops, soft skinned vehicles most of the time unless you hit'm right, and bunkers. HEP will piss off a tanker if you fire one at him but will do the job on most everything else. Wille pete's good for marking rounds and starting fires. Heat rounds are useful for penetrating most armor ,and bunkers if your out of HEP. APR'S or cannisters are good for jungle busting and troops in the open. Move. Means just that. If you cain't move your not a tank. Your a target or a pill box until you become a target. Communicate. Tanks are most effective in force. they are for the most part very vulnerable and must operate as a team to support each other by each one being responsible for an area of fire, no indvidual tank being capable of defending itself from all quadrants. To do this effectivly means that they must be able to talk to each other or the team leader/platoon comander. Yes tanks are vulnerable and there are many ways to disable one. Any good grunt squad knows most of them.
But I degress. Why is that round in the condition you see it and why were the rounds in my old tank not much better looking? Well probably because the crew had a dozen more important things to fix or keep clean and the tank commander, the Platoon leader, the Company commander, the battalion commander and the division commander, oh yes, and the loader were confident that when that round was shoved up the gun tube, it would detonate and send the projectile down range as intended.
Just not worth it to keep yanking them out and cleaning them all the time.
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 06:24 PM UTC
These are real Russians in Chechnya. here is page I got the photo from
http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/modern/russia/inaction/grozny-4.htm. I know I know
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 06:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What your seeing is the condition everything is in a combat line unit. Scruffy dosn't mean shoddy or lack of service or maintenance. These rounds are perfectly capable of doing what they are intended to do. You don't repaint ammo. Not in the field. Now is the time for this soldier to clean these rounds, while they're out of the tank. When you have the time and the resources you straighten bent fenders, replace broken lights and guards, clean your pioneer tools, restencel markings and other nonessintial housekeeping chores. Everyday you do the essentials. Whats the norm in a combat line unit would get you gigged state side. The essentials are those things you do to insure that your vehicle is capable of completing your mission. A shovel is a hell of a lot more important than a paint brush and a tanker bar is a sacred object. A tank has to do 3 things to be effective. Shoot, move and comunicate. Not to be confused with the 3 attributes of armor which are fire power, mobility and shock effect. Shoot means your gun is clean, your optics are calbrated and sighted in and your ammo is correct for your mission. Sabot is useless against troops, soft skinned vehicles most of the time unless you hit'm right, and bunkers. HEP will piss off a tanker if you fire one at him but will do the job on most everything else. Wille pete's good for marking rounds and starting fires. Heat rounds are useful for penetrating most armor ,and bunkers if your out of HEP. APR'S or cannisters are good for jungle busting and troops in the open. Move. Means just that. If you cain't move your not a tank. Your a target or a pill box until you become a target. Communicate. Tanks are most effective in force. they are for the most part very vulnerable and must operate as a team to support each other by each one being responsible for an area of fire, no indvidual tank being capable of defending itself from all quadrants. To do this effectivly means that they must be able to talk to each other or the team leader/platoon comander. Yes tanks are vulnerable and there are many ways to disable one. Any good grunt squad knows most of them.
But I degress. Why is that round in the condition you see it and why were the rounds in my old tank not much better looking? Well probably because the crew had a dozen more important things to fix or keep clean and the tank commander, the Platoon leader, the Company commander, the battalion commander and the division commander, oh yes, and the loader were confident that when that round was shoved up the gun tube, it would detonate and send the projectile down range as intended.
Just not worth it to keep yanking them out and cleaning them all the time.



Very good ArmdCav. Hit it right on the head . As this is a front line unit and they are fighting most of the time I bet this guy is glad to clean those shells then have to fire them
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 07:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What your seeing is the condition everything is in a combat line unit. Scruffy dosn't mean shoddy or lack of service or maintenance. These rounds are perfectly capable of doing what they are intended to do. You don't repaint ammo. Not in the field. Now is the time for this soldier to clean these rounds, while they're out of the tank. When you have the time and the resources you straighten bent fenders, replace broken lights and guards, clean your pioneer tools, restencel markings and other nonessintial housekeeping chores. Everyday you do the essentials. Whats the norm in a combat line unit would get you gigged state side. The essentials are those things you do to insure that your vehicle is capable of completing your mission. A shovel is a hell of a lot more important than a paint brush and a tanker bar is a sacred object. A tank has to do 3 things to be effective. Shoot, move and comunicate. Not to be confused with the 3 attributes of armor which are fire power, mobility and shock effect. Shoot means your gun is clean, your optics are calbrated and sighted in and your ammo is correct for your mission. Sabot is useless against troops, soft skinned vehicles most of the time unless you hit'm right, and bunkers. HEP will piss off a tanker if you fire one at him but will do the job on most everything else. Wille pete's good for marking rounds and starting fires. Heat rounds are useful for penetrating most armor ,and bunkers if your out of HEP. APR'S or cannisters are good for jungle busting and troops in the open. Move. Means just that. If you cain't move your not a tank. Your a target or a pill box until you become a target. Communicate. Tanks are most effective in force. they are for the most part very vulnerable and must operate as a team to support each other by each one being responsible for an area of fire, no indvidual tank being capable of defending itself from all quadrants. To do this effectivly means that they must be able to talk to each other or the team leader/platoon comander. Yes tanks are vulnerable and there are many ways to disable one. Any good grunt squad knows most of them.
But I degress. Why is that round in the condition you see it and why were the rounds in my old tank not much better looking? Well probably because the crew had a dozen more important things to fix or keep clean and the tank commander, the Platoon leader, the Company commander, the battalion commander and the division commander, oh yes, and the loader were confident that when that round was shoved up the gun tube, it would detonate and send the projectile down range as intended.
Just not worth it to keep yanking them out and cleaning them all the time.



A truly amazing response. Thank you for the lecture on how real Soldiers act in the field.
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 10:42 PM UTC
I have to chime in on the side of 210CAV. Having commanded a tank company and a combat support company, there is no excuse for the mud around the base of the rounds. The scratched paint on the round is result of taking rounds in and out of vehicle. Mud on the road wheels, bent fenders, etc., are not issues while manuevering, unless they hamper maintenance and operation of vehicle (you can't service grease fittings on road wheels, if mud is not removed).

The dirt on the round could cause the round to not properly seat in the breech and cause the breech block to jam, a deadly situation in combat. Plus if mud is on base of round, the primer is also most likely dirty, causing round to misfire.

Having been in a T-62 on several occasions, I do not understand how that mud would get there unless the crew stood the rounds in the mud, a guaranteed way to cover the primer on the base of the round!!!! The T-62 has space for only three ready rounds in the turret, there are no rounds in the non-existant turret bustle, as in M60A1/A3, where feet could get mud on rounds.

I believe the rounds in the picture are HE, not HEP. It is Russian practice to fire HE while on the move, to keep enemies head down. The T-62 fire control system is not accurate enough to hit a target while on the move. HEP does not have a fuze on the tip, they are base detonated.
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 - 11:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have to chime in on the side of 210CAV. Having commanded a tank company and a combat support company, there is no excuse for the mud around the base of the rounds. The scratched paint on the round is result of taking rounds in and out of vehicle. Mud on the road wheels, bent fenders, etc., are not issues while manuevering, unless they hamper maintenance and operation of vehicle (you can't service grease fittings on road wheels, if mud is not removed).

The dirt on the round could cause the round to not properly seat in the breech and cause the breech block to jam, a deadly situation in combat. Plus if mud is on base of round, the primer is also most likely dirty, causing round to misfire.

Having been in a T-62 on several occasions, I do not understand how that mud would get there unless the crew stood the rounds in the mud, a guaranteed way to cover the primer on the base of the round!!!! The T-62 has space for only three ready rounds in the turret, there are no rounds in the non-existant turret bustle, as in M60A1/A3, where feet could get mud on rounds.

I believe the rounds in the picture are HE, not HEP. It is Russian practice to fire HE while on the move, to keep enemies head down. The T-62 fire control system is not accurate enough to hit a target while on the move. HEP does not have a fuze on the tip, they are base detonated.



Ranger--well written. Some people do not appreciate that the first and most important thing you drill into your unit is "that we move, shoot, and communicate--or die." That means that you take care of your equipment and do not make excuses for sloppy workmanship. Any armor craftsman realizes that once you expose main gun rounds either place them inside the vehicle or place them on dunnage and cover with a tarp. Getting mud on them is detrimental to the firing systems. If it wasn't was is the guy wiping the round? I quote my good friend COB "inspect do not expect" or words to that effect
DJ
Ranger 5-69 grad!
ARMDCAV
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Posted: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:20 AM UTC
Chime in, please. I have to think back a lot further than you guys do. Your dead on about the HE/HEP by the way. One question. Are these rounds percussion or electricaly detonated?Your comment about the scratches being related to loading and unloading rounds is also valid. This, to me indicates that this unit may be in a reserve or support role or possibly a border guard? That crud and the scratches didn't get on there overnight. Clean shiny ammo is usually only found on units in contact that replenish rounds often or on firing ranges. Even then I've seen rounds come out of the shipping tubes with rust on them. Go back and look at the picture. You will see that the round base is NOT covered in mud. If it was I sure that it would be removed before the round is returned to the tank. That black stuff in the crevasse at the base of the round is dirt and grime which can be found most everywhere on and in a vehicle in service. It's hard to get at and it seems to me that these guys have more essential things to do than be sitting around cleaning ammo with a tooth brush to a like new condition. Not to say that it isn't done. Some commanders are bears about this sort of thing. Others realize that this isn't a parade ground and though spit&polish has its place, this may not be one of them. Inspection of the vehicle and equipment is a daily task by the whole crew. However a through inspection of rounds in their racks are not. You don't open every package in your first aid pack either. All TO&E is inspected on a set schedule as well as the rounds. Dirt thats hard to remove and scratches do not make a round unserviceable. Even a dent in the casing dosn't make it unserviceable. If it will seat it will fire. Equipment found to be serviceable will be returned to the vehicle else you replace them, thorough channels. Uh, yea Right. Maybe that when you you guys were in it was easy to replace equipment. Not in the 60's. Budgets were tight then and you learned to use what you had. Same with the Russian now you think?
A lot of what has been discussed here, on my part anyway, relates to American equipment though I can tell you that the normal routines and practices of tank crews in any army are pretty much the same. I can say this because I have served with tankers from other countrys in combat, on firing ranges and in beer halls on 3 continents. Maybe I should start a thread on tanker etiquette. Na, this is a famly channel.
"When your up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember than your original objective was to drain the swap".
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 12:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Chime in, please. I have to think back a lot further than you guys do. Your dead on about the HE/HEP by the way. Your comment about the scratches being related to loading and unloading rounds is also valid. This, to me indicates that this unit is in a reserve or support role or possibly a border guard? Clean shiny ammo is usually only found on units in contact on a regular bases or on firing ranges. That crud and the scratches didn't get on there overnight. Go back and look at the picture. You will see that the round base is NOT covered in mud. That black stuff is dirt and grime. One question. Are these rounds percussion or electricaly detonated?
A lot of what has been discussed here, on my part anyway, relates to American equipment, though I can tell you that the normal routines and practices of tank crews in any army are pretty much the same. I can say this because I have served with tankers from other countrys in combat, on firing ranges and in beer halls on 3 continents. Maybe I should start a thread on tanker etiquette. Na, this is a famly channel.
"When your up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember than your original objective was to drain the swap".



"Tank etiquette." Now, that would be an interesting subject for you to explore. I look forward to seeing it.
 _GOTOTOP