Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
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Panther II and Panther F?
woodstock74
North Carolina, United States
Joined: December 28, 2002
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Joined: December 28, 2002
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Armorama: 692 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 08:37 AM UTC
What's the difference? I've seen the Panther II with the standard Panther turret at the Patton Museum. But what are the differences between what would have been the production Panther II and the Panther F? Did the Panther F see combat?
MLD
Vermont, United States
Joined: July 21, 2002
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Joined: July 21, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 08:41 AM UTC
Lots of differences.
Many of the Panther II improvements were incorporated into the G models. AFAIK, the II never reached serial production.
The F's were on the production line at the end of the war, but no evidence of their use in combat has been found.
there is still quite a bit of debate on the turret to be mounted on the F.
DML's Schmallturm in both kits is quite oversized and hangs off the hull sides.
The Panzertracts folks Jentz and Doyle are doing the definitive (read as: using orig documentation) volume on the F and II to be released soon.
Mike
Many of the Panther II improvements were incorporated into the G models. AFAIK, the II never reached serial production.
The F's were on the production line at the end of the war, but no evidence of their use in combat has been found.
there is still quite a bit of debate on the turret to be mounted on the F.
DML's Schmallturm in both kits is quite oversized and hangs off the hull sides.
The Panzertracts folks Jentz and Doyle are doing the definitive (read as: using orig documentation) volume on the F and II to be released soon.
Mike
Biggles2
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:29 PM UTC
According to the Osprey book on Panthers,"...during late April Daimler-Benz did fit several Model G Panther turrets to completed Model F chassis and delivered these tanks to the troops then desparately defending Berlin." Outwardly the G and F chassis looked identical. The front hull roof was a bit thicker and the glacis plate near the Kugleblende was improved. Also the guides for the driver and rad-op hatches were modified. All these changes would be invisible on a model.
Sticky
Vermont, United States
Joined: September 14, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 09:43 AM UTC
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Panther II shared parts with the Tiger II, and was more Tiger-like in design, while the F was just a progression of the current panther.
bodymovin
California, United States
Joined: July 28, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:35 AM UTC
i always thought the panther looked very similar in chasis to the king tiger with the sloped armor etc...
ian
ian
Biggles2
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 02:30 PM UTC
There are two schools of thought on the Panther II design. Jentz believes the Panther II was to be identical to the D model but with much thicker armor ie: turret and frontal - 100- 150 mm.; side - 60mm. Spielberger contends that Panther II was to have a distinctly different design. They both agree, however, that Panther II would share the same engine, roadwheels, and track with the Tiger II. As no prototypeof the turret was ever built and no plans or designs survive, discussion of Panther II remains a moot point.
jpzr
Kentucky, United States
Joined: July 01, 2004
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Posted: Friday, January 07, 2005 - 02:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the Panther II shared parts with the Tiger II, and was more Tiger-like in design, while the F was just a progression of the current panther.
You are correct. The wheels (steel), tracks, suspension, engine, transmission, and at least part of the rear deck were to be shared with the Tiger II. The vehicle sitting in the Patton Museum has the transport tracks, but I don't think this pairing was intended to be permanent. With the additional armor, the Panther II's weight would have come in just under that of the Tiger II, so I would think flotation would be an issue with the narrower transport track.
The Germans had two major goals with the design of the Panther II: Improve the armor protection, all-around, and utilize as many common components with the Tiger II as possible. In terms of appearance, the one prototype hull that was completed basically looks like a beefed-up Panther G sitting on the running gear of a Tiger II. Its major legacy in terms of Panther development (appearance wise, anyway) was that it introduced the slanted, straight-line profile of the hull sides that was to be adopted by the G. As Biggles2 pointed out, the turret never got past the drawing board, so we have little to do but speculate on that part of the vehicle. There has been some confusion about the turrets of the Panther II and the F, with some (hello DML) mistakenly believing they were one and the same. According to Jentz, they were separate development projects, albeit sharing some similarities in appearance. It is widely believed that at least one schmalturm prototype intended for the F was completed by war's end, eventually finding it's way to a holed-out existence on a British firing range.