All the pics of USMC shermans that I can find on the web are of 'small hatch' versions of the M4A2 75mm, yet Academy has re-released their M4A2 as a USMC tank, yet this has the 47degree hull.
I'm thinking of changing the 76mm turret of my Dragon kit for a late 75mm, would this make an accurate USMC tank? If so some pics would be good!
Advice please.
Hosted by Darren Baker
USMC M4A2 47degree hull
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 10:21 AM UTC
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:49 PM UTC
The big problem with M4A2s with 47 degree hull fronts is that they look almost identical to late M4A3s unless you can see the engine deck or hull rear!
I think at least some M4A2s with late hulls made it into Marines sevice, interestingly this version didn't have wet ammunition stowage and sometimes got fitted with applique armour (which maybe why it turns up in the Tamiya wet-stowage M4A3s). All late M4A2s had the right hand turret front with cast in added armour.
Try and find Ed Gilbert's 'Marine tank battles in the Pacific' for more help.
http://www.naval-military-press.com/books/titles/4592.htm
I think at least some M4A2s with late hulls made it into Marines sevice, interestingly this version didn't have wet ammunition stowage and sometimes got fitted with applique armour (which maybe why it turns up in the Tamiya wet-stowage M4A3s). All late M4A2s had the right hand turret front with cast in added armour.
Try and find Ed Gilbert's 'Marine tank battles in the Pacific' for more help.
http://www.naval-military-press.com/books/titles/4592.htm
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2005 - 06:07 AM UTC
Thanks David, I'll look out for that reference.
kbm
Joined: June 16, 2003
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2005 - 06:40 AM UTC
Hi Dave:
I just finished reading Ed Gilbert's Marine Tank Battles in the Pacific (DaCapo Press edition) and I have several comments regarding that book: (1) it is an excellent historical reference (although in the two big end of war campaigns [Iwo Jima and Okinawa] you easily lose track of which tank unit was supporting which Marine Rifle regiment etc.). (2) It does a good job of telling you which type of tank a particular Marine tank battalion used in a particular battle (M3A1, M4A2, M4A3, etc.) (3) I do not recall it specifying which type of M4A2 a unit had and (4) the picture reproduction in the DaCapo Press edition was terrible, making the pictures basically useless from a modeling perspective.
Keith
I just finished reading Ed Gilbert's Marine Tank Battles in the Pacific (DaCapo Press edition) and I have several comments regarding that book: (1) it is an excellent historical reference (although in the two big end of war campaigns [Iwo Jima and Okinawa] you easily lose track of which tank unit was supporting which Marine Rifle regiment etc.). (2) It does a good job of telling you which type of tank a particular Marine tank battalion used in a particular battle (M3A1, M4A2, M4A3, etc.) (3) I do not recall it specifying which type of M4A2 a unit had and (4) the picture reproduction in the DaCapo Press edition was terrible, making the pictures basically useless from a modeling perspective.
Keith
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2005 - 09:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
the picture reproduction in the DaCapo Press edition was terrible, making the pictures basically useless from a modeling perspective.
Keith
Thanks Keith,
I've also found out that the Free French forces in Europe had some 47degree hull M4A2 at the end of the war. I have a pretty mediochre pic of a 75mm armed example, but can't find out if they had 76mm as well. I have both the kit turret and a spare late 75mm so I'm not too bothered if they didn't - would be nice to use the Dragon turret up though.
LVTDOC
Joined: November 01, 2004
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:47 AM UTC
Try hardcorpsmodels.com for pictures of USMC Shermans. In the reference section.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2005 - 01:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The big problem with M4A2s with 47 degree hull fronts is that they look almost identical to late M4A3s unless you can see the engine deck or hull rear!
I think at least some M4A2s with late hulls made it into Marines sevice, interestingly this version didn't have wet ammunition stowage and sometimes got fitted with applique armour (which maybe why it turns up in the Tamiya wet-stowage M4A3s). All late M4A2s had the right hand turret front with cast in added armour.
It's a virtual certainty that all large hatch M4A2s (i.e, 75mm, vice M4A2(76)s) were dry stowage with hull applique armor. Sooo, if you see a large hatch 75mm tank with applique, bet on it being an M4A2.
Regarding your last comment, there are several pictures of M4A3(75)Ws mounting D50878 "low bustle" turrets with reinforced sides (turret applique)!
KL
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2005 - 06:23 PM UTC
I appreciate all the hekp so far Guys, can anyone help out with 'the French Connection'?
This looks interesting to me as they are the only allied force that fought in Europe that doesn't yet feature in my collection.
This looks interesting to me as they are the only allied force that fought in Europe that doesn't yet feature in my collection.
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 3,791 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2005 - 09:20 PM UTC
For more French Shermans than you can shake a stick at look here:
http://www.chars-francais.net/listing_m4.htm
http://www.chars-francais.net/listing_m4.htm
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:52 AM UTC
Man, what a link - thanks David, that ones gone in my favourites for a better look later!
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 04:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Regarding your last comment, there are several pictures of M4A3(75)Ws mounting D50878 "low bustle" turrets with reinforced sides (turret applique)!
Thought the high bustle was needed to clear the larger hatches of the later hull. I'll never get the hang of Shermans. Perhaps a spell trying to spot the distinctive features which identify T-34 factories is needed to focus my mind
Dave - have a look at the rest of the chars-francais site if you have any interest at all in French armour. The Char B1 page is even more extreme.
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 06:01 AM UTC
I've had a good look through the Shermans on that site - seems the French used every combination possible except the M4A2 76mm - all of the ones I could find were 75mm and mostly small-hatch hulls (did find about 6 47degree fronts, mostly with indecipherable markings) - no problem except that my spare 75mm turret is a high-bustle example with cast in cheek armour! Darn it - 2 hours it took to go through that lot and only low-bustle turrets in sight!
Still got a couple of weeks looking for info before I'm ready to make it so there's time yet - I'll just keep on goin'.
Still got a couple of weeks looking for info before I'm ready to make it so there's time yet - I'll just keep on goin'.
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
KitMaker: 4,307 posts
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Posted: Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 06:00 AM UTC
With many thanks to all those who provided information for me, it looks as if after all it'll be a Soviet build. This is because I don't have a low bustle turret to make the French versions - all the pics show this turret - but mainly because I've been ferreting around in the box again and just can't bear to consign that lovely 76mm turret and turned barrel to the spares box!
Hollowpoint
Joined: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Friday, January 21, 2005 - 12:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I've had a good look through the Shermans on that site - seems the French used every combination possible except the M4A2 76mm - all of the ones I could find were 75mm and mostly small-hatch hulls (did find about 6 47degree fronts, mostly with indecipherable markings) - no problem except that my spare 75mm turret is a high-bustle example with cast in cheek armour! Darn it - 2 hours it took to go through that lot and only low-bustle turrets in sight!
Still got a couple of weeks looking for info before I'm ready to make it so there's time yet - I'll just keep on goin'.
If you still are interested in doing a Marine M4A2, the later M4A2(75) with a high-bustle and cheek bulge were used on Peleliu and Saipan. If you can find Concord's Tank Battles of the Pacific there are several photos. Apparently, Saipan was pretty good "tank country" for the South Pacific, so the Shermans were pretty successful in helping take the island.
DaveCox
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Friday, January 21, 2005 - 12:12 PM UTC
Changed my mind again - According to 'The Sherman Register' - which knowing Hanno Spoelstra I believe - Britain received 5 Sherman IIIAY - M4A2(W)76. As the only pics I can find of the 76mm armed M4A2 are 47degree hulls it'll add to my Brit. collection.
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/
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