On the M577 is there a weld bead or something that secures the new crew compartment to the existing M113 hull, in other words are the hull sides smooth or?
Thanks in advance
Pete

I have seen postings to the effect that early ones were welded but later ones were cut from one piece. I have not seen anything first hand or from primary sources mentioning this at all.

KL

I guess it depends on the actual vehicle. Some are smooth. Don't know if it's possible to grind it out or if it's cut as one piece.

This is a Texas National Guard vehicle.




Paul

As stated above, early vehicles were M113s with added upper panels. Later vesions were built as M577s with one piece sides. There is no year or timeframe to say when it changed. We still had M577A2s at Ft Stewart as late as 2003 that still had weld seams. We also had A2s and A3s with smooth, one piece sides as well. Either is correct, I think all M577A3s (M1068) are new manufacture with solod sides though.

I have pics of both welded and smooth.Joker if you are doing a CDN one I think most if not all ours are smooth.All the pics I've seen of CDN 577s were smooth.But that said I could be wrong.Check "my photos" I have two pics one welded one not.

When I got into the maintenance section for my unit (34th ID) back in 1995-1997, I asked that exact question about the weld seams as we had to 557's right by each other, one with and one without. I was told by the Maint Chief, who was a really good guy and knew his sh#$, that the pre-A3 557's were all converts and that they were smooth only if the welders ground down their beads after they were done. Since it took a fair amount of work to do, it was not always done.

SO there is what I know....

The 577s I drove and TC'd in the '80s had the welded sides (stateside and in Germany). I think I saw my first smooth side 577 during my third tour to Germany ('95-'99) with the 3rd ID.

Anyway you model, you'd probably be 99.9% correct.

Mike

As far as I know this actually is not true. Probably a story Maint Chief made up to avoid saying that he does not know the answer :-)

My sources show that only the earliest gasoline powered M577s were made by welding the extension to regular M113 hull and this process left prominent weld seam. Most (if not all) M577A1s had one piece side armor without any weld seam. Many (all?) M577A2s, M577A3s and M1068A3s are rebuilt from earlier vehicles hulls, often from the oldest gasoline powered M577s. That's why weld seam is not a rare sight on these newest vehicles (what effectively ruins Chief's theory ). If you look closely on photos of these latest variants you may notice that vehicles with weld seam also have some other features of the earliest M577 A-nothing, like old style right headlight clusters and old welded headlight guards. Please visit Don Busack's Prime Portal for some excellent pictures of M557 and M1068: http://www.primeportal.net/apc/apc_home.htm#M577. Vehicles with and without seams are visible on photos there.

I admit that I have never seen real M577 "in the flesh" but my research and all photos I saw seem to support what I wrote above. But I still can be proved wrong of course...

Pawel

Good Point Pawel.

I don't have any pictures of the 557's I was looking at, but they were both TOC vehicles and were side by side. They were both M557A2's, with all the appropriate A2 parts including the headlight clusters and so on. The only difference was the weld on the side. Now that does not prove anything, and I have no photo's, but when I go to Camp Ripley next I will try to get some shots fo the 557's and we can see what we come up with!

I find it hard to believe that any welder would want to waste his time grounding down the beads - these are two long beads on both sides of the vehicle. A LOT of work. I also suspect that removing the bead would actually severly weaken the joint. But the only sure proof would be a photo of e.g. smooth-sided M577A1 or A2 with the paint removed (sandblasted) - if grounded down bead is visible then Chief was right, if it is not there then most likely I'm right. But I guess getting such picture would be difficult...
Of course you could get some sandpaper with you for your next trip to Camp Ripley and remove some paint from one of these M577s :-) :-) :-)

Pawel

Or you could check out the interior. They might grind off the exterior weld to look good but I don't think they would grind off the interior weld.

Also, the M577 I have pictures of has a weld on the rear piece as well. In line with the top of the rear door opening. Don't know if this piece was ever solid.

Paul

There is no trace of any weld bead on the rear plate of this M1068A3: http://data.primeportal.net/apc/m1068_walk/m1068-30-DSC07246.JPG.

Pawel

Just a couple of points on this:

1. Yes, the US Army and the National Guard would have someone who had welded the plates sit with a grinder and grind those weld beads smooth. Not saying they did, just that it is well within the scope of the "Green weenie machine" to have that done.

2. When welding pieces like those for the 577, they cut a big V trnch into the pieces and then weld "the snot out of it" in those big fat beads to not only fill up the space, but to also provide a strong joint. I have done welding of this kind, not in the military, myself. THe weld is actually STRONGER than the surrounding metal after all is done, although it is more succeptable to a crack than a forged piece. I have a nice long story on how we found out all this info...

Still, I will see what I can dig up when I am at the vehicle depot.

I worked for a Very large Turbo Product company.... Made steam turbines & Such....... Some of the castings were HUGE and had the "weld" prep" designed into them....... i mean 12" x12" V grooves

And Welding For DAYS!!!!

However, neither the Army nor the National Guard _built_ M577s. They were made made by Food Machinery Corporation or BMY or UDLP on contracts. Contractors do not do anything they don't have to (and sometimes not even ALL they have to). It's hard to imagine what benefit removing the weld reinforcement would serve, but the negative effects could be calculated.

I think the problem is that the real heritage of the vehicles hasn't been established. We can't say at this point whether a particular M577A3 started off as a M113 hull at FMC then became an M577A1 and was upgraded to an M577A3 or whether it was a new production M557A3 or it was born a M577 and recently became an M577A3. If people kept track of the vehicle serials and compared them with production records, the answer as to which and whether vehicles had visible seams might be knowable, but short of that . . .

KL

Good point Kurt...I was thinking more along the lines when the 577's end up at a MATES section to be reworked/repainted. I could see a LT with a bug up his rear telling a maint section to make the 577 (he may be tooling around in later) "look smarter" by grinding down the weld beads, and then repaint the whole vehicle...such is life in the Army. #:-)