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The Future of NATO Paint Schemes
phoenix-1
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Wisconsin, United States
Joined: December 25, 2003
KitMaker: 629 posts
Armorama: 340 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 07:43 AM UTC
Hey everyone.
With the recent transition to MARPAT style uniforms, I began thinking about whether the vehicle paint schemes currently used by the US military would be phased out in favor of monotone style patterns (such as the NATO green that Strykers appear in) or MARPAT-style schemes. So I wanted to ask what you guys and gals thought. Are NATO schemes on their death bed? What do you think future schemes will look like? Any comments are welcomed.
Kyle
lavgnr
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2003
KitMaker: 338 posts
Armorama: 216 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 08:07 AM UTC
Try teaching a Material Tech how to paint that! In the time it would take to mask, they could have five vehicles out the door! I'm betting on the monotone green, but tri-colour NATO will probably be around for a long time.
Snowhand
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: January 08, 2005
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 08:25 AM UTC
The future of camo schemes depends on how we look at things in the future.
With all manner of sensors being tested, camo will be altered to be effective agains them

Right now, detection depends largely on visibility within the visual spectrum, but allready, armored vehicles have IR sensors, so developing a paint that is highly IR absorbent may render it undetectable to such sensors, even if the vehicle in question may be completely fluorescent red!!!!!

And in my dreams, I have developed a camo system that relies on micro visual sensors and fiberoptics to give a surface the same appearance as it's surroundings... off course.. my dreams take place about 1500 years from now lol.

The Dutch army has been experimenting with removable camo schemes, which could be applied quickly to suit any circumstance, and can be washed off later.

Images of that are here

Hope this helps,

Richard Renes
lavgnr
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2003
KitMaker: 338 posts
Armorama: 216 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 09:01 AM UTC
Funny that you mention that, Richard- when Canada first went to Afghanistan, all vehicles were painted with a temporary paint that, as far as I know, lasted the 6 months and then was washed off. Where water contacted them, a strange cam pattern formed, close enough for government work!
The fifth picture, with the squarish edges of the paint, may be the beginning of a Cadpat/ Marpat style. I eat my words!
generalzod
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United States
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 3,172 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 09:02 AM UTC
Richard
Thanks for the link Some nice camo paterns there Especially the black/white winter camo Allthough it would blend in more with cows on a field than snow :-)
Snowhand
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: January 08, 2005
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 09:10 AM UTC
indeed... :-) It seldom snows here in Holland, but we do have plenty of cows in the field...

I only hope, for their sake, that they they don't end up in a field with redfurred cows
Snowhand
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: January 08, 2005
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 09:16 AM UTC
Just thought of something else.. something that is allready quite common in the automotive field:

Pearlescent coatings.. which change color depending on how you look at them.

No doubt somewhere on this world, there are people trying to duplicate this with 'not so bright' colors.
Snowhand
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: January 08, 2005
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
Armorama: 345 posts
Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 09:33 AM UTC
Something I just thought off.. and which is allready quite normal in the automotive industry:

Pearlescent coatings, which change color depending on at which angle you look at them.

No doubt that some highbrows are trying to do something similar with military colors.
18Bravo
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:15 AM UTC
Snowhand,
Your idea is not all that farfetched. Many years ago a test was done with an M113. It was positioned on the crest of a ridgeline, (a place you normally wouldn't want to be) and was obviously quite visible. But when an array of 60 watt bulbs on its front were turned on, it absolutely disappeared from sight. I've seen this phenomenom happen with aircraft before, where their reflected light closely matches the ambient light, they can seem to disappear. The Air Forces is working on films that will do the same thing.
kkeefe
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Massachusetts, United States
Joined: May 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,416 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:28 AM UTC
I have never really understood the NATO 3-tone camo. I just never thought that it broke up the vehicle's silhouette enough for my liking. Get it dirty (or have it fade a little) and the green, black and red/brown seem to all blend into one big target. I have liked the Brit and pre 3-tone Dutch camo where there were two different and contrasting colors. Still IMHO more effective when dirty/faded as the exposed surfaces with the two colors still seemed to be distinguishable (in a camo sense).

It is my understanding that the 3-tone paint is infa-red surpressant to some degree... same as the dyes used in the (US) BDU Uniform.

Things are in the works and vehicle as well as personal camo will certainly be changing in the not-so-distant future however, for vehicles and in the mean time, a solid color (or two colors) with enhanced countermeasures (IR sup netting etc) would IMHO work better instead of the NATO 3-tone. That only working (?) when fresh out of the factory and squeeky clean.

Just my humble opinion...
bison126
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Correze, France
Joined: June 10, 2004
KitMaker: 5,329 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2005 - 05:49 AM UTC
Hi,
it looks like a fashion top model parade :-)

the British Berlin brigade like camo has been tested in the French army too for urban operations. I don't know where it has led up to now.
The French army does use a range of camo from Central Europe to desert with winter variant (more really in use though). I could add the UN white.
We do not have temporary paints which could be easily washed away. So it is not unusual to see vehicles with 2 or 3 layers of paint some areas being peeled off by the weather or the field conditions.

To give more direct an answer to the topic, I am not aware of a new camo which could succeed to the current NATO one. To my knowledge, the current researchs are focussing on IR or even thermal detection suppressive shades.

olivier
Hoovie
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California, United States
Joined: March 14, 2004
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2005 - 06:18 AM UTC
which one for Iraq????
Ron
Snowhand
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: January 08, 2005
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2005 - 07:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Snowhand,
Your idea is not all that farfetched. Many years ago a test was done with an M113. It was positioned on the crest of a ridgeline, (a place you normally wouldn't want to be) and was obviously quite visible. But when an array of 60 watt bulbs on its front were turned on, it absolutely disappeared from sight. I've seen this phenomenom happen with aircraft before, where their reflected light closely matches the ambient light, they can seem to disappear. The Air Forces is working on films that will do the same thing.


I have heard of this test....., but wasn't sure who had performed it. I have seen pics of the result, and yes, the vehicle simply wasn't visible anymore because of the properties of the lights.

Making such a system portable and workable in the field is an entirely different matter though
Snowhand
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Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Joined: January 08, 2005
KitMaker: 1,066 posts
Armorama: 345 posts
Posted: Monday, January 24, 2005 - 08:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have never really understood the NATO 3-tone camo. I just never thought that it broke up the vehicle's silhouette enough for my liking. Get it dirty (or have it fade a little) and the green, black and red/brown seem to all blend into one big target. I have liked the Brit and pre 3-tone Dutch camo where there were two different and contrasting colors. Still IMHO more effective when dirty/faded as the exposed surfaces with the two colors still seemed to be distinguishable (in a camo sense).

It is my understanding that the 3-tone paint is infa-red surpressant to some degree... same as the dyes used in the (US) BDU Uniform.

Things are in the works and vehicle as well as personal camo will certainly be changing in the not-so-distant future however, for vehicles and in the mean time, a solid color (or two colors) with enhanced countermeasures (IR sup netting etc) would IMHO work better instead of the NATO 3-tone. That only working (?) when fresh out of the factory and squeeky clean.

Just my humble opinion...


Believe me when I say to you that at least, the way the Germans and Dutch are doing it.. it does break the shape.. especially in twilight and darker circumstances.

The 3 tone camo came into being in Germany and Holland because olive type colors simply aren't found anywhere in northwest europe.

The Germans came up with Bronzegreen ( which mimmicks lichen ), leatherbrown ( which mimmicks treetruck colors and autumn leaf colors ) and pitch black ( similar color as new tarmac ) as disruptor.

The Germans did require them to be RAL colors ( local politics ) which does have 1 serious implication: not only is the color standard... the complete manufacturing of the color is standard.. and... it doesn't fade as much as the american equivalents.
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