Okay, I know all about most people's opinion on the Tamiya M113 vs the Academy M113. My focus is on OIF and I am willing to build just about any variant, including the M577. I have the Academy A2 and I have the Tamiya desert version which is supposed to be for OIF. I suppose I should go with the Academy kit if I go with a basic M113.
But, both kits seem to be missing some items I will need, like smoke grenade launchers and the locally made side racks that were also on Bradleys.
Are there any aftermarket kits for the M113 that can help? Are there any conversion kits that would apply to OIF? Tamiya used to make a mortar carrier version (I guess for Vietnam era), but would it be usable for OIF? IS there a better conversion kit available in the mortar carrier version?
Most of the photos I have are of the M577, a mortar carrier version with extended fuel cells, an A2 in a HQ unit w/ extra radios, and an A2 Ambulance. So, reference-wise one of these would be my preference.
Any thoughts?
Bob
Hosted by Darren Baker
M113 in OIF
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,437 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 02:56 PM UTC
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 03:26 PM UTC
I screwed up with my comment about the missing smoke launcher. I now see it on the Tamiya model. Nonetheless, all the other comments still apply.
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 03:38 PM UTC
Bob,
The Tamiya still has the hull from their original M113A. The Academy is much better for an A3 conversion, it is a proper hull for an A2/A3.
The Mortar carrier w/external tanks is the M1025A2 120mm mortar carrier. AEF does a conversion kit for it, can't vouch for the quality, but I don't hear too many good things about AEF though.
Verlinden does a PE side rack set.
Here are some photo of anM113A3.
Main differences between A2 and A3 are mostly internal. Other differences are on front glacis, there are extra armor plates around the engine hatch and light area.
I'm sure Vodnik will fill you in on more details, he did a M113A3 conversion from the Tamiya M113A2 Desert Version kit a while back.
Good luck.
The Tamiya still has the hull from their original M113A. The Academy is much better for an A3 conversion, it is a proper hull for an A2/A3.
The Mortar carrier w/external tanks is the M1025A2 120mm mortar carrier. AEF does a conversion kit for it, can't vouch for the quality, but I don't hear too many good things about AEF though.
Verlinden does a PE side rack set.
Here are some photo of anM113A3.
Main differences between A2 and A3 are mostly internal. Other differences are on front glacis, there are extra armor plates around the engine hatch and light area.
I'm sure Vodnik will fill you in on more details, he did a M113A3 conversion from the Tamiya M113A2 Desert Version kit a while back.
Good luck.
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 04:38 PM UTC
As far as I know MR Modellbau makes the only conversion to build the M1064A3 Mortar Carrier 120mm starting with the Tamiya M106 kit.
There are some M577s seen in OIF but several have been upgraded to M1068s which will require some modification.
Paul
There are some M577s seen in OIF but several have been upgraded to M1068s which will require some modification.
Paul
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 05:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
As far as I know MR Modellbau makes the only coversion to build the M1064A3 Mortar Carrier 120mm starting with the Tamiya M106 kit.
Paul
Paul, you are correct. M1025A2 is the 82mm mortar carrier, sorry about that.
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 06:48 PM UTC
Thanks Paul for that info. I checked out VLS site and they have the kit. Nothing is cheap when it comes to this sort of stuff, though - $51.95, but at least I get a discount as a member.
I am very interested now. I like the look of the mortar track with the extended fuel cells and the photos I have show the tracks sporting camo nets, which is kind of rare for US Army vehicles in OIF. That could be a whole new problem; making modern camo nets with those odd shapes attached to the nets.
But the first trick would be finding the original Tamiya kit. VLS does not have it.
But, can anyone vouch for MR Model quality? I have never bought their stuff before or even seen it first hand.
I also checked out the Verlinden set. Everything is nice except that they only give you one side rack. All my photos show vehicles with two side racks. Not sure if the mortar tracks even had them. Will have to go check that out now too.
Thanks so far, fellas.
Bob
I am very interested now. I like the look of the mortar track with the extended fuel cells and the photos I have show the tracks sporting camo nets, which is kind of rare for US Army vehicles in OIF. That could be a whole new problem; making modern camo nets with those odd shapes attached to the nets.
But the first trick would be finding the original Tamiya kit. VLS does not have it.
But, can anyone vouch for MR Model quality? I have never bought their stuff before or even seen it first hand.
I also checked out the Verlinden set. Everything is nice except that they only give you one side rack. All my photos show vehicles with two side racks. Not sure if the mortar tracks even had them. Will have to go check that out now too.
Thanks so far, fellas.
Bob
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 07:26 PM UTC
eBay is an option for the kit http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2588&item=5952542083&rd=1
or Hometown Hobbies http://www.hometown-hobbies.com/inc/pdetail?v=1&pid=9187
I have one MR kit and the resin is decent. Some of the pour plugs are a pain to get off. The only thing I can really whine about is the instructions which are spotty and in German.
MR does have some build photos on their site:
http://www.mrmodellbau.de/mr/pix/workshop/MR-74-1.jpg
http://www.mrmodellbau.de/mr/pix/workshop/MR-74-2.jpg
http://www.mrmodellbau.de/mr/pix/workshop/MR-74-3.jpg
Here's a pic of the vehicle from army.mil:
http://www4.army.mil/armyimages/armyimage.php?photo=4371
Search for the existing threads on M1064 and also check out Sabot's Motorpool:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?set_albumName=albur39&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Paul
or Hometown Hobbies http://www.hometown-hobbies.com/inc/pdetail?v=1&pid=9187
I have one MR kit and the resin is decent. Some of the pour plugs are a pain to get off. The only thing I can really whine about is the instructions which are spotty and in German.
MR does have some build photos on their site:
http://www.mrmodellbau.de/mr/pix/workshop/MR-74-1.jpg
http://www.mrmodellbau.de/mr/pix/workshop/MR-74-2.jpg
http://www.mrmodellbau.de/mr/pix/workshop/MR-74-3.jpg
Here's a pic of the vehicle from army.mil:
http://www4.army.mil/armyimages/armyimage.php?photo=4371
Search for the existing threads on M1064 and also check out Sabot's Motorpool:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?set_albumName=albur39&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Paul
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 08:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Are there any aftermarket kits for the M113 that can help? Are there any conversion kits that would apply to OIF?
AEF Designs has also released 2 sets for OIF M113s (KA-42 and KA-43) that include racks and storage boxes. But they may be not worth the money and some scratchbuilding would give better results IMHO. I will use the sets I've bought for dimensions....
Frenchy
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 09:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Paul, you are correct. M1025A2 is the 82mm mortar carrier, sorry about that.
Actually it's M125A2. M1025A2 is a Humvee
And it was 81mm mortar carrier... 
Quoted Text
I'm sure Vodnik will fill you in on more details, he did a M113A3 conversion from the Tamiya M113A2 Desert Version kit a while back.
Actually I'm still working on it, but it is almost finished now. I built my model using most parts from Tamiya M113A2 Desert kit, but I used suspension and lower hull from Academy M113A2.
Most noticeable (external) features to include in a model to make reasonably accurate M113A3 are:
- external fuel tanks - these in Tamiya kit are much nicer from these in Academy model,
- additional armor on the front hull, around headligths
- new exhaust, similar to A2 type but still a bit different. Tamiya kit includes correct A3 parts,
- large trim vane, again Tamiya kit part is nicer,
- small floatation screen plates for engine grilles are usually carried folded above the trim vane,
- tie downs on the side armor plates,
- provisions for mounting applique armor on front, side and rear armor (small round holes with threaded inserts),
- modified rear cargo ramp hatch hinges, latch and handle,
- suspension - all M113 kits on the market including Academy models have A0/A1 type suspension. Academy kits and latest Tamiya kit include the shock absorber on second road wheel arm, which is standard in A2 and A3 type suspension, but dimensions of suspension are still A1. To make more accurate A2/A3 suspension it is necessary to lower road wheels (1" in real world) and raise the idler wheel (up 2" in real world). In A1 suspension the top of the road wheel is almost at the same height as the top of ider wheel (as in all models), while in A2/A3 suspension the top of idler wheel is three inches above the top of road wheels, what changes the way tracks lay on wheels. In A2/A3 suspension the track is not even touching the top of last road wheel when the vehicle is stationary and not heavilly loaded. I used Academy hull and suspension in my kit because they are easier to modify (separate suspension arms).
Tamiya kit still includes some features which were accurate only for early M113 and have to be modified for any later variant. These parts are correct in Academy kit and need no changes:
- tow cable carrier is different,
- the layout of right headligh cluster is different,
- the shape of right engine grill is different.
Quoted Text
But the first trick would be finding the original Tamiya kit. VLS does not have it.
Bob,
Most conversions designed for Tamiya kits should work with Academy models with no or minimal modifications. Dimensionally these kits are almost identical.
Pawel
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 01:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Most conversions designed for Tamiya kits should work with Academy models with no or minimal modifications.
If this picture,http://www.mrmodellbau.de/mr/pix/mr/MR-74.jpg, from the MR site is the complete contents of the conversion then you will need the M106 kit for the mortar carrier roof & hatches plus the floor with turntable.
Paul
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 02:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
you will need the M106 kit for the mortar carrier roof & hatches plus the floor with turntable.
Oups... Yes, of course - you are right. Indeed in case of M1064 conversion parts from Tamiya kit are necessary
Pawel
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,437 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 05:42 AM UTC
Thank you all. Just to clarify one more thing on the mortar track. In OIF (I mean OIF 1 when the coalition attacked from Kuwait) was this track based on the A2 or A3? Or both? My understanding was that most M113 variants, like this mortar track, which had extended fuel cells were A2s. It appears the conversion kit may be an A3. Even if the kit is an A3 and the only vehicles in OIF 1 were A2s I suppose it would not be tough to make the kit an A2.
Vodnik
Joined: March 26, 2003
KitMaker: 4,342 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 06:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In OIF (I mean OIF 1 when the coalition attacked from Kuwait) was this track based on the A2 or A3? Or both? My understanding was that most M113 variants, like this mortar track, which had extended fuel cells were A2s. It appears the conversion kit may be an A3. Even if the kit is an A3 and the only vehicles in OIF 1 were A2s I suppose it would not be tough to make the kit an A2.
Most M113 variants during OIF were already A3 standard. I believe that all mortar carriers were M1064A3. Also note that in US Army service the only A2 variants, which carried external fuel tanks were some specialized vehicles, like M981 FISTV. No US Army M113A2 personnel carriers, or M106A2 and M125A2 mortar carriers carried external tanks - they became standard in A3.
Pawel
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 08:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Paul, you are correct. M1025A2 is the 82mm mortar carrier, sorry about that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually it's M125A2. M1025A2 is a Humvee And it was 81mm mortar carrier...
I know that, duh. Guess I let my fingers do the walking a little too much.
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,437 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 08:34 AM UTC
Thanks for the clarification. Then the A3 it is. That is, if I can get the darned conversion kit. I just tried to order it from VLS and they don't have it anymore. If this becomes too difficult maybe I will have to go with another version.
My thought is to have an M113 family vehicle stopped in front of the VLS tenament building (which I already have) with some civilians standing about, and a few Dragon OIF figures in the rear hatch. I liked the mortar track idea since it would be something different. If I can't get it, maybe a plain M113 HQ vehicle or an engineer M113. I did not notice anything really different for the engineer M113s other than a long locker attached to the right side of the roof, and of course the side racks that most M113s had (when I say engineer vehicle I am not talking about a specialized vehicle - I am talking about a plain M113 that they rode around in and of course had their equipment inside).
My thought is to have an M113 family vehicle stopped in front of the VLS tenament building (which I already have) with some civilians standing about, and a few Dragon OIF figures in the rear hatch. I liked the mortar track idea since it would be something different. If I can't get it, maybe a plain M113 HQ vehicle or an engineer M113. I did not notice anything really different for the engineer M113s other than a long locker attached to the right side of the roof, and of course the side racks that most M113s had (when I say engineer vehicle I am not talking about a specialized vehicle - I am talking about a plain M113 that they rode around in and of course had their equipment inside).
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 08:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If I can't get it, maybe a plain M113 HQ vehicle or an engineer M113. I did not notice anything really different for the engineer M113s other than a long locker attached to the right side of the roof, and of course the side racks that most M113s had (when I say engineer vehicle I am not talking about a specialized vehicle - I am talking about a plain M113 that they rode around in and of course had their equipment inside).
You are correct. Engineer M113 is a standard M113A3. No special engineer equipment on it. Could go for the ambulance version as well, for something a little different.
ptruhe
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 09:33 AM UTC
Does anyone make a kit of the trailer you sometimes see towed behind a M113? Or a water buffalo?
Paul
Paul
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 09:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
If I can't get it, maybe a plain M113 HQ vehicle or an engineer M113. I did not notice anything really different for the engineer M113s other than a long locker attached to the right side of the roof, and of course the side racks that most M113s had (when I say engineer vehicle I am not talking about a specialized vehicle - I am talking about a plain M113 that they rode around in and of course had their equipment inside).
If you are looking for OIF engineer M113s, you can have a look here :
http://community.webshots.com/user/5thengineers
or here :
http://www.imagestation.com/member/index.html?name=mark.and.gail.wilson&c=201
Just search the albums (OK I know there are hundreds of pics, but it's worth the effort !
)Many M113s and other engineer vehicles as well (M577, Humvees, trucks, M9 ACE....)
Frenchy
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 09:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Does anyone make a kit of the trailer you sometimes see towed behind a M113? Or a water buffalo?
Paul
ADV/Azimut had released a resin M104 trailer (kit #35066) but I don't know if it's still available...
Frenchy
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 11:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Does anyone make a kit of the trailer you sometimes see towed behind a M113? Or a water buffalo?
Paul
Italeri made a set with a M101 trailer and a WWII/Vietnam era tank trailer.
Both are still available separately from Bilek.
The Italeri two trailer set comes on Ebay quite often and is much cheaper than the individual Bilek kits.
Lucky you, there is one on Ebay now. Italeri Trailer set
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,437 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:29 PM UTC
If I can't come up with that mortar track conversion kit, which I checked out on their website and looks very nice, then I think I will go with the engineer version. I could have a bunch of figures in the rear hatch and some great stuff hanging off the sides. I have seen photos of stacked up orange cones hanging on the sides. That could add a splash of color. And I like the look of all that stuff hanging off and out of the side racks. The long locker on the roof would be interesting too.
Gino: Would they have only had A3s, or A2s as well? Looks like a bunch more work to do an A3 properly.
I also thought about the M577, which were still being used in OIF, but I have not read one good thing about the old Tamiya kit, and I don't feel like doing all that scratchbuilding to replace the incorrect parts. That is too bad, because I have some very cool photos of two M577s back-to-back under one of the overpasses during the second thunder run into Baghdad. Soldiers are crouched in between and looking in both directions (they were essentially surrounded). It would be a great diorama with a partial highway bridge structure to figure out.
I'm blabbing because I have a bit of a passion about OIF, and as far as modeling goes, I think I might be inspired enough to concentrate on OIF subjects for some time to come. I'm still in the middle of an M1A1 but I am already thinking about the next project. I think psychologists have a name for this, and it is not good.
Bob
Gino: Would they have only had A3s, or A2s as well? Looks like a bunch more work to do an A3 properly.
I also thought about the M577, which were still being used in OIF, but I have not read one good thing about the old Tamiya kit, and I don't feel like doing all that scratchbuilding to replace the incorrect parts. That is too bad, because I have some very cool photos of two M577s back-to-back under one of the overpasses during the second thunder run into Baghdad. Soldiers are crouched in between and looking in both directions (they were essentially surrounded). It would be a great diorama with a partial highway bridge structure to figure out.
I'm blabbing because I have a bit of a passion about OIF, and as far as modeling goes, I think I might be inspired enough to concentrate on OIF subjects for some time to come. I'm still in the middle of an M1A1 but I am already thinking about the next project. I think psychologists have a name for this, and it is not good.
Bob
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:38 PM UTC
Robert,
Yes, both M113A3 and A2s are still out there. Same is true for M577s, my unit had both M577A3s (M1068) and A2s. The Tamiya M577 is not that bad. It is an M577A1 hull, just like all other Tamiya M113s. You could either try to convert it into an A2 by adding the shock absorber on the #2 road wheel, and updating the engine intake grills and exhaust area. Or, you can use the M577 parts from the Tamiya kit and add them to an Academy M1113A2 kit for a more accurate M577A2. The rest of the kit looks pretty good. I have one that I am going to do with a full interior, sometime in the future.
Yes, both M113A3 and A2s are still out there. Same is true for M577s, my unit had both M577A3s (M1068) and A2s. The Tamiya M577 is not that bad. It is an M577A1 hull, just like all other Tamiya M113s. You could either try to convert it into an A2 by adding the shock absorber on the #2 road wheel, and updating the engine intake grills and exhaust area. Or, you can use the M577 parts from the Tamiya kit and add them to an Academy M1113A2 kit for a more accurate M577A2. The rest of the kit looks pretty good. I have one that I am going to do with a full interior, sometime in the future.
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,437 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 01:02 PM UTC
I read a review on another site that mentioned that except for early versions, the extended rear part was not a separate part, and the kit is an add-on that does not fit well and so shows a prominant 'step' when glued on. I recall seeing a thread here recently that discussed a weld bead.
So, in OIF1 should there be no signs of a weld bead?
The same review said the roof detail was simplistic and crude as well as the rear lights. I don't even know what the roof really looks like as my photos are from ground level. One interesting item I noticed in OIF1 was that many, if not all, M577s had a kind of railing like you would see on a hospital bed on the roof top, I suppose for more storage. But I do not know the configuration other than one angle I can see in the photos, and it is always the same angle even though I have different photos of different vehicles. It's a conspiracy by the militry to foil us modelers, I swear. Secret stowage racks!
So, in OIF1 should there be no signs of a weld bead?
The same review said the roof detail was simplistic and crude as well as the rear lights. I don't even know what the roof really looks like as my photos are from ground level. One interesting item I noticed in OIF1 was that many, if not all, M577s had a kind of railing like you would see on a hospital bed on the roof top, I suppose for more storage. But I do not know the configuration other than one angle I can see in the photos, and it is always the same angle even though I have different photos of different vehicles. It's a conspiracy by the militry to foil us modelers, I swear. Secret stowage racks!
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 02:04 PM UTC
Bob,
The Tamiya 577 parts are separeate and fit fine on the Academy M113A2.
As for weld lines, it depends on lots of factors, as discusssed in the earlier thread. Basically, either with or without weld bead around joint between M577 upper and lower hull is correct. We had A2's with and without weld in 3ID, most A3s I saw had smooth sides.
The rack you are referring to was probably for the QUEAMS (Quick Erect Antenna Mast System) antenna that is now fitted to most M577s. It is a cracnk up antenna that folds down on the roof when mot in use. It has a guard that look slike a hospital rail to protect it.
Here is a top view:
The Tamiya M577 kit is accurate on the roof, no issues.
A site with lots of pics: M577
Hope this helps and convinces you to push forward with it.
The Tamiya 577 parts are separeate and fit fine on the Academy M113A2.
As for weld lines, it depends on lots of factors, as discusssed in the earlier thread. Basically, either with or without weld bead around joint between M577 upper and lower hull is correct. We had A2's with and without weld in 3ID, most A3s I saw had smooth sides.
The rack you are referring to was probably for the QUEAMS (Quick Erect Antenna Mast System) antenna that is now fitted to most M577s. It is a cracnk up antenna that folds down on the roof when mot in use. It has a guard that look slike a hospital rail to protect it.
Here is a top view:
The Tamiya M577 kit is accurate on the roof, no issues.
A site with lots of pics: M577
Hope this helps and convinces you to push forward with it.
Burik
Joined: March 12, 2002
KitMaker: 1,437 posts
Armorama: 1,303 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 02:46 PM UTC
Gino, you are very convincing. You should come to work for me when you give up that Army gig.
What is that curved tubular 'thingy' on the roof? Anyway, since it appears that I will need to do the antenna you are referring to, with the protective rack, are there any photos out there of it. I did not see them on the site suggested.
I could still do the engineer M113, but the M577 dio might just be cooler.
Bob
What is that curved tubular 'thingy' on the roof? Anyway, since it appears that I will need to do the antenna you are referring to, with the protective rack, are there any photos out there of it. I did not see them on the site suggested.
I could still do the engineer M113, but the M577 dio might just be cooler.
Bob
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