Hi I have 2 stupid armor questions, and hope to get some answers:

1. For the tracks on a tank, what would happen if you put it in the wrong way, would the tank still run, but the tracks are easy to be thrown?

2. The second question is inspired by Saving Private Ryan, remember at the fight in the town, the real cool sniper got killed because a marder II (?) took a hot at him with its main gun, what if the sniper is real good and able to shoot one bullet down to the barrel of the main gun, would it detonate the shell in the gun?

I know they are silly questions, but would like to know some answer. Thanks!

LOL. Funny, I was thinking the sniper thing as well, as he was agile enough to shoot the german sniper through the scope before! (Which I think was ridiculous...)
I don´t know about armor shells but with the kind of detonation system that´s based on impact, why not? At least the guy could have given it a shot, what did he have to loose?
#:-)

Toni

Dave,

I'm not sure about the track question, but I think that the answer to your sencond question is yes. I read a story a couple of years ago about a US recon team (consisted of 2 M8 Greyhounds) that pulled into a small French village that was supposed to be unoccupied. They were talking to one another when about a 1/4 mile down the street, 2 Panthers turned the corner. They immediately jumped back into their Greyhounds which were in single file order and started to reverse. The gunner of the Greyhound in front fired off a shot and the lead Panther's main gun exploded and the other Panther promptly withdrew. Once things had calmed down a bit, they went to inspect the destroyed Panther and found that the 37mm shell from the Greyhound went right down the barrel of the Panther and hit the 75mm round that the gunner was about to shoot at them which exploded and destroyed the gun and the interior of the turret. I don't see why a high-velocity rifle round couldn't do the same thing.

In answer to your first question: Yes, it is possible to run most tracks backwards, but it would be a lot of work to get them wrong -- those things are heavy! That said, I will add that I have seen Shermans with backwards tracks. I think this is more likely to happen with double-pin tracks with end connectors (mechanically the same on both ends) than with single-pin tracks (which will only fit together one way).

To your second question: I suppose it's possible. As Adam points out, there certainly have been cases where ammo has been hit and detonated while still in the tube. Whether or not a Springfield .30 caliber round could detonate a 75mm or 76mm AT round, who knows?

Normally, if you see tracks put on backwards, it was done in haste, like during a combat situation. On modern US tanks, it would not matter if the tracks faced one way or another since the late style M1 and M60 tracks with replaceable pads anre omni-directional. But even the old chevron pattern could be reversed without any effect.

As far as a bullet down the tube, the angle would have to be perfect and the round an HE (High Explosive), then maybe, but doubtful. I had a crewman drop a 105mm HEAT round off an M60A3 and land on concrete with the plunger hitting first with no effect except to dent the windscreen (an aluminum bottle cap-looking cover).

Geez, Rob, I bet that raised your "pucker factor".........

Yes, the TC of that tank and I dove behind a stack of crates. Of course those crates each held 2 rounds of service ammo and there were enough crates there to outfit my entire platoon. Additionally, the fueler HEMTT was topping off the vehicles about 20 feet away.

As Sabot pointed out, the tracks used on armor today is the replaceable pad type, the profile of this track being neutral or omni-directional. You can replace the pad or rubber part of the track while the track is mounted eliminating the need to break track. If the terrain or weather conditions warrant it you can remove the track pad and run all steel tracks the mounting sockets for the pads then becoming cleats. Snow & ice conditions for instance where bite is necessary. Chevron tracks are designed to shove mud sideways and out from under the track allowing the track to get a grip ___/, if mounted backwards /---- the mud will tend to be collected under the track. As to your question,will track be thrown if mounted backwards, this depends on the characteristics of the track. Most all tracks are designed to go around wheels, or support rollers and wheels both forward and backwards, orientation not being a factor. There is a factor though that may affect the direction of travel at high speeds. Christie suspensions and those suspensions utilizing return rollers employ tracks where the track blocks have a self alignment capability. The connecting pins act like torsion bars, always attempting to keep the track blocks level with each other. When working properly we refer to these as live track. There may be a dynamic factor of the track that would be negated if mounted backwards. I don't know I have never seen a track mounted backwards. What can throw a track? Think of track as indeed big thin rubber bands streached around wheels attached to movable arms. Sitting still on flat ground it's all streached out keeping the track nice and tight. BUT, when moving across uneven ground the arms move as each wheel rides up and over ridges and down in to gullies. Now you will see the configuration of the suspension has changed and slack is evident in the track. And just like a big thin rubber band the track will tend to flob and whip around. More so at speed. What you want to control is the flopping and more importantly to keep the track from kinking. This can happen when you apply a lot of power to the drive sprockets but the terrain or the degree of bank prevents a like acceleration of the whole track. As the drive sprocket pulls the track up and over, the rear road wheels may tend to squat down thus allowing slack. This slack and kinking of the track is then introduced in front of the drive sprocket and to the return rollers. With the drive sprockets attempting to shove the track forward faster than the rest of the suspension can pull the track forward, loose track can and has walked off the rollers and the wheels. Bummer. Keeping the track tight and the blocks alive helps prevent this kinking. If you want to see this yourself, tape a few playing cards together with thin tape like scotch tape, lay them across a couple of balls or wheels that would be the same scale as the cards then try to shove, not pull the cards across the wheels. Cards kink up don't they? Now use thicker tape so that the joints don't bend so easily and try it. Easier to shove them foreward now without kinking. Thats the idea about self aligning track blocks. Helps to prevent kinking so they can be shoved foreward when there is little to pull them.
Your question about setting off a round in the gun tube. All things are possible. The example of the 37mm would tend to be a given due to the fact that the 37mm is an explosive round and would surley detonate the main gun round. But a sniper round is not a given. They are not normally explosive and may have to penetrate the round to set of the explosive. Hitting the Fuse may not detonate the round either. As stated in another post, fused rounds do tend to be dropped. so what keeps them from going off? I cannot say for the new smooth bore ammo but our tip fused rounds fired from rifled barrels required that the round had to turn so many times in flight before centrifugal force armed the fuse.

While uncommon, it is not unheard of to see a Sherman (in particular) with one track on backwards. Weird things happen. I recently inspected a derelict piece of logging equipment a couple of hours' drive from home. This old relic was clearly based on a late VVSS Sherman hull with uswept return rollers and a pointy-nosed cast transmission cover. Roadwheels were very badly worn, a few had no rubber at all. Both tracks were EXTREMELY worn rubber-chevron type and both were mounted backwards. At least I think so. Can't really tell which way was forward with this rig.

Greg

Greg,
The drive sprocket is at the front end of a Sherman

If my memory serves me correctly, Carlos Hathcock, Legendary U.S. Marine sniper had a kill through the scope. It means that to make the shot you have to be in the sights of the other sniper. Kinda scary......... Otto

I don't know about the tracks - but to the second question I've got a story.
When I was in the army (artillery), the officer leading the drill told us before the live ammunition firing that you can actually hit the shell fitted with the fuse one or two times with a hammer, right to the tip and it wouldn't go off - but you really had to think, if you'd like to hit the shell for the third time. The fuse was build in a way, that it wouldn't be even active before it was shot - there were somekinda little metal balls, that rolled in their places, when the shell was fired and it blazed throught the sky thus setting the fuse "active". This was even tested in theory, when one of the guys accidentally slammed a granade in the end of the gun - tip first, fuse fit - ofcourse, we all dived for cover and the fella with the granade needed a pair of clean underwear.. but nothing happened.

I don't know, if the tankshells have the same fuses that the artillery uses. I guess not, cause the range and the type of ammo is different. Few examples tell me (the one Dave told earlier, about the Greyhound-Panther-incident) that it is possible to hit the granade and blow it off with a bigger caliber, so maybe it is possible to shoot the grenade of a tank with a rifle too. It really would be a shot in a million though.

Marko

Hell with the Pucker factor I bet the *rap factor was taking over damn recruits

[quote]


So Rob,
Did you ever find that pair of skivvies? the seat portion of those BDU's?

The Puker factor : Immesurable..

Mike

Actually, the collective sum of all the troops pucker factor worked in our favor...I don't think the motor pool needed to be swept for a couple of months.

although the idea sounds plausable, in reality the detonation of a round in the barrel of a piece of ordanance is highly unlikely. As previously stated by other replies that rounds have been dropped and failed to detonate, this is due to a time delay built in so that a round does not become "live" until it has left the barrel. However, if the sniper was an exceptional excellent shot (the internal diameter of a barrel is alot less than it appears on the outside and alot longer) then it is possible to strike the round and cause fouling in the internal rifling of the barrel.When fired the round would fail to pass up the barrel and would cause either a breech explosion or the barrel explode. the first would kill some of the crew, the second would scare them to death. Hope this answers your question.

remearmr (ROBBO)

PS. THE ONLY STUPID QUESTION IS THE ONE YOU DON'T ASK.

That´s right! And an addition to this: The shell could be detonated only after passing the highest point of the flight path when the metal balls complete the electric circuit of the fuse making it live.
(Try to figure this out, my English sucks today!)



Toni

Guys, thanks for the answers. very very interesting. Okay, additional one, now I know the modern tracks are omni-directional, so what about those one put on the WW II Panzers? the model kit's instruction always says put the track this direction, so what if in the field, some one messed up and put it backwards, the tank would still run, right?

Put 'em on the correct way or you'll have a whole bunch of questions to answer. I would never enter a contest with backward tracks, nor would I post on the Web.

Like it has been said before in this thread, it would be EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to have backward tracks on a Panzer -- most (if not all) were directional single-pin tracks. VERY UNLIIKELY to be put on backwards. Would they run? Maybe for a short distance, then they may break or clog with mud.

Are you trying to justify a mistake? If so, it might be better to re-do the tracks or just "retire" the tank to the personal collection.

Nein, been extremely careful when start to building panzer models, Just want to know... :-)

If I did make one wrong, I think I will try a dio out of it, with a couple Panzer guys scratching their heads, and say to the officer "Herr Lieutenant, I swear I put it the right way...." :-)

In my previous post I limited my discussion to what I knew or rather what I think I remember about tracks. The basic principle being that you CAN mount them backwards and yes they will work. Tracks on panzers are pretty much the same with one or two exceptions. The Tigers it seems had two types of track. Transport tracks and combat tracks the latter being much wider. The profile of the track is such that the outside of the track extends outward beyond the suspension and suggest that it would be impossible to mount these tracks backwards as there would not be room on the inside for the track extention and still engage the drive sprockets and suspension properly. Not so. An article about the Tiger tank being restored at the Bovington Museum includes a picture of the tank with the tracks on the right side being left side tracks mounted backwards.

My crew put the 113 tracks on backwards once. Must say they weren't to happy when I mentioned that they had a problem. Complete track replacement is usually the best time for tracks to be replaced wrong. If you think about it track dosen't care which way it's mounted, performance with the grond is the only problem.

Nowadays if you put a single direction track on your vehicle backwards you and your crew better be ready to buy a lot of beer for everybody else, because it will cost you!!!!!!

Detonating a tank round : There are two basic kinds of tank rounds - those with explosive and those without. Sabot and shot have no explosive in their projectile and will not explode, although the repellant can be detonated. Those rounds with explosive projectiles come with and without time fuzes. Some modern tank rounds have time fuzes (Beehive being the only current US tank round with a time fuze) while HEAT, HEP and HE normally have impact fuzes. As a safety feature for teh impact fuzes the base mounted fuze in these rounds must spin s certain number of times after firing before the fuze becomes active, usually abour 50-100 meters or less for tank rounds. A 37mm HE round could set off a WW2 era HE round, probably by either damaged the projectile casing and igniting the high explosive inside the shell, by damaging the fuze and causing it to detonate the projectile, or even possibly forcing the projectile back into the casing and detonating the propellant (I do not know the sensitivity of WW2 German propellant).

It was lucky for SABOT that the HEAT round one of his cres dropped had the safety in its fuze. There is a pezoelectric (spelling?) crsytal in the tip of the stand off rod of the heat round. When the tip impacts against the target the crystal is crushed, generating a small electric current which travels thru a circuit to the fuze in the base of the projectile, detonating the HEAT round. Since the round had not been fired (generating a certain g-force and had not been spun after firing it was still in safe mode). But the taxpayers had paid $500-$1000 for that round